Structural Consulting Fees 3

[KevinChez]

I work with a number of architect's and developers. Often (a couple times a month) I get a question or email that takes about 20 minutes of my time. I don't really charge for this because it often leads to more work or just strengthening the relationship.

Does anyone have similar experiences and/or thoughts and how to navigate the "hey I have a quick question for you" haha. Thx.

 

[phamENG]

Case by case. If an architect is feeding me work, then the occasional 20 minute phone call is no problem - I try to budget a certain amount of non-billable time into my day anyway. If they rarely give me work and/or call frequently, I may push back. Start gently by keeping the answers vague and, if they push, tell them it's a bit more involved and "why don't you send me the drawings and I can give you a proposal." Another option may be to roll that into the next project fee.

Not sure how detailed your time tracking is, but if possible keep track of it under a standalone project number/name that never gets billed. Each quarter, year, or whatever works for you, look at your profitability with that client with those hours rolled in. Are you still making money? Yes, great. No...either increase your fees (carefully - this can back fire), or try to leverage a few more "free" calls into paying projects.

 

[KootK]

1) Definitely do "small favors" for your clients. That kind of thing triggers a deep psychological need to reciprocate that is just what you want from a sales perspective.

2) Make sure that you're building "favor time" into the profitability of your relationships of that client on other, paid projects. If this isn't possible over the long term, fire the client or, if possible, adjust the relationship somehow to get you back in the black. Ultimately though, there should be no such thing as recurring, unpaid favor in business.

3) The reverse of this is to be seen by your client as "nickle and diming". You definitely do not want that from a sales perspective. Dance the dance of consulting services. You're not a dentist after all. And that's probably best as their suicide rate is alarming.

 

[MIStructE_IRE]

Charging for a one off phone call would be petty in my view. You’d soon start to hear your phone ring less and eventually not at all..

It works both ways, I often ring people to bounce off and would be pretty upset if I got a bill afterward!

All part of the job really, you win some you lose some!

 

[BadgerPE]

I will always make time to answer an existing client's questions regarding a new project. For new clients, it is a case by case basis for how much time I spend with them. This has worked extremely well for me, especially on the contractor side. I have a few said contractors that go into a new project meeting with the arch and owner telling them that we will be the SE on the project. This time would be classified as "working on" the business and not "working in" the business.

 

[XR250]

I try to avoid long emails at all costs and take care of things with a phone call. Same goes for ZOOM calls. That way I can multi-task (i.e do CAD work) as I am talking. I do mentally keep track of the time but generally wont' charge unless it gets excessive or the project has other hours that have not been billed. FWIW, I have only participated in one ZOOM call during this entire pandemic!

 

[kissymoose]

I try to avoid long emails at all costs and take care of things with a phone call. Same goes for ZOOM calls.

I prefer calls as well as they are more personable and generally faster, but was reminded recently of the importance of having everything in writing ("I sent "x" to you weeks ago and haven't received a reply", they had forgotten our phone conversation).

 

[rowingengineer]

I always find it interesting how we think compared to other professionals. If I call my accountant or lawyer, a bill will show up, if over 15 mins of work.

However structural engineers are happy to give free advice......

 

[Ben29]

@rowingengineer, I had this same thought today. I find that many engineers are ethical, wanting to help, and we want to show off how smart we are. :-D

 

[phamENG]

Ethics doesn't play into it - nothing unethical about charging for your time so long as you're actually billing for time you worked. Now the showing off how smart we are...I think you hit the nail on the head there.

 

[KootK]

I find that many engineers are ethical gentlemen, wanting to help, and we want to show off how smart we are.

That's how I see it. It's also worth noting that lawyers and accountants are a bit different in that their contracts are almost never lump sum. So, if you're not going to charge for your time as you expend it, what the heck would you charge for? But yeah, I fully acknowledge that our industry blows at the whole solidarity / collusion game.

 

[KevinChez]

Thanks for the comments. Very helpful.

 

[IceNine]

our industry blows at the whole solidarity / collusion game.

I've never understood how real estate agents and their 6% is legal collusion. And we get laughed out of town for trying to get 1.5%...

 

[Rabbit12]

IceNine....don't get me started on real estate agents.....lol.

 

[KootK]

I've never understood how real estate agents and their 6% is legal collusion. And we get laughed out of town for trying to get 1.5%...

It pains me to say this but the answer is this: a real estate agent's performance is of more value to their client than a structural engineer's performance is to a structural engineer's client. For the the most part, nothing ever goes wrong with structures no matter who you get to design them (effectively no consequences). A good realtor can save you a bundle and help you navigate a complex situation that most people feel warrants some professional hand holding (big consequences). Want the big dinero as a consultant? Get into a consulting racket that has consequences. This, incidentally, is also why structural engineering tends to pay better in the high seismic markets: past failures remain salient in the living memories of the residents of those areas.

 

[dik]

I don't think real estate agents are the only ones that are overpaid for what they do...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[rowingengineer]

I don't think other professionals/agents are under paid. I don't feel like we should bring them down to justify our slice of the pie.

 

[skeletron]

@phamENG: that's a neat idea, rolling it into an unbilled separate project line that you review on a quarterly basis. I might try that.

Like others have mentioned, a bit of free-talk goes a long way. I've always felt that if I'm going to charge someone, I need to provide a deliverable or an onsite visit. I'm cautious about giving too much info or really digging into a problem that I can't reasonably charge for, but sometimes all people are looking for is a confirmation of their original gut feel.

To be honest, charging like a lawyer (15min here, 15min there) sounds like an administrative boondoggle that is only applicable if you have an administrator to chase up that cost.

 

[STrctPono]

For the the most part, nothing ever goes wrong with structures no matter who you get to design them (effectively no consequences). A good realtor can save you a bundle and help you navigate a complex situation that most people feel warrants some professional hand holding (big consequences).

I would actually argue that this is exactly what makes a structural engineer either average or exceptional.... Not someone who is an analysis wiz or comes up with slick designs but someone who thinks like a Contractor and is a shark when it comes to playing the game. (At least for large contracts.... probably doesn't apply to residential design). You're right, no one really thinks structures are going to come toppling down if designed by the wrong person but a messy complicated job can have the issues exacerbated if put in the hands of the wrong Engineer. Some bad initial assumptions on the part of the Engineer can lead to some very costly Contractor change orders in the future or worse, an unbuildable solution.

 

[KootK]

I agree, one can make a little marketing hay by speaking to less technical things like constructability, responsiveness etc. The trouble with those things, though, is that any decent PM can do them, even without a P.Eng, so it can be difficult to parley them into a lucrative specialty rather than just a larger volume of moderate paying work. Most of the sharks that I know of have a few contractors and/or developers in their pockets and got them there by:

1) Schmoozing.

2) Responsiveness.

3) Solid project management.

4) Prioritizing "reasonable" results over strict adherence to theory.

Then, with an acceptable volume of work rolling in, the game becomes about making sure staff aren't spending more time on projects than the clients are paying for with a healthy margin built in.

Obviously, that sets up a potentially unsavory incentive structure.