Structural EIT Compensation 2

[theisland808]

Hi all,

I'm approaching my 2 year anniversary working as a structural EIT in Hawaii. I'm trying to get a raise and wondering what would be a reasonable number to ask for.. I read that the national average for an entry level structural engineer is around $65-67k but wondering how accurate that is.

To give some background..

Education:
Graduated with BS in Civil Engineering 2019
Structural Courses Taken: RC Design, Steel Design, Grad Level Steel Design (composite members), Masonry Design, Class on ASCE 7.

Previous Employment:
Land Surveyor Intern
Bridge/Culvert Inspector Intern
Undergrad Earthquake Response and Recon Researcher

Programs used:
ETABS,SAP2000,STI BEAM,AUTOCAD,ENERCALC,EXCEL,WORD,BLUEBEAM

My first ever task which caught me off guard was to design a 3 story building consisting of CMU walls, steel framing, and a concrete over metal deck floor system. This was a bit overwhelming as I just got out of school but the courses I took paired with late nights of trying to understand the code kept me alive... Now that the project is in construction, the engineer who was above me (not the DOR) but someone who designed another building on the project quit.. so now I am dealing with all coordination items, RFIs, submittals, site visits, etc. On this project I have already coordinated items with architect, mechanical, and the contractor with just 1.5 years of experience.

Other projects I've worked on:
- Concrete formwork design
- Evaluation of prestressed planks for building renovation
- Evaluation of hollow core planks for additional Hospital roof equipment
- Roof equipment frames, cable tray systems, and MRI equipment anchorage
- Schematic Design preparation for new Junior School (2000sf) as well as proposed retrofitting of existing elementary building (2000sf)
- 36' Diameter Water Tank Foundation Design
- 40' tall SRMF (RC) canopy consisting of two 60' bays using prestressed double tees for the roof
- Couple smaller guard shack type structures consisting of RC wall and roof systems
- Inspection and evaluation of existing wood truss warehouse to support new roof and added fan loads (25000sf)
- Evaluation of restaurant deck area to accommodate new quartz flooring
- Seismic Evaluation of Existing buildings using ASCE 41-13(1 to 2 story buildings/warehouses)

Miscellaneous tasks:
- Help generate small Fee Proposals for jobs <$7000
- Help review submittals for coworker's past projects
- Bridge/Culvert inspection
- Rebar/Concrete/Grout inspection on site
- Coordinate/conduct site visits with contractors

Every year, my company performs an annual evaluation in July. We sit with supervisors and decide if we exceed expectation, meet expectation, or need improvement.

My first year, I met all expectations for the criteria and only exceeded in communication. Here is how I rank this year...

Meets Expectations for the following criteria:
- Understanding of Job Knowledge & Skills
- Performance of Additional Duties
- Demonstration of Job Skills
- Leadership
- Self development & Growth

Exceeds Expectations for the following criteria:
- Performance of Essential Duties
- Communication
- Quality & Quantity of Work (Supervisor said that it was more so that I was handling and producing higher quantity of work than my peers but roughly the same quality)
- Attitude
- Accountability, Responsibility & Personal Pride


Now.. for the compensation. I accepted an initial offer from my current company for $26.25 ($54,600/yr with 40hr weeks although I often put a lot of effort in off the clock...) I feel that this initial offer was a bit low but I really wanted to work for this company as they worked on projects I recognized in the area, and the interview with my now supervisor went really well so I did not negotiate at all. On top of that, I really wanted to try out private design work before defaulting to government jobs like most in the area.

What do you guys think would be a fair raise to ask for? Considering the national average for an entry level structural engineer is $67k, and my evaluation says that I am exceeding expectations on half of the areas I'm evaluated on, I'd honestly like to end up at $70k/year or ~$34.00/hr. I know this may seem like a huge increase (28% increase) but that's considering I came in at such a low starting pay. Had I come in at the market entry level structural engineer, this would only be a 4% increase. Any thoughts, comments, etc are appreciated.

 

[phamENG]

Sounds like you're off to a great start. Be glad you go that brief time in the frying pan before being dumped in the fire - most of us just end up in the fire from the start.

I did a quick search for entry level SE on salary.com and set the location to Hawaii...according to that your $70K is pretty close. Now keep in mind that's the median income for entry level SEs...working at companies that take the time to fill out the surveys. So it's an imperfect metric. That said, $54,000 is probably a bit low here on the East Coast. Ignoring market specifics and just looking at cost of living concerns, adjusting for average national inflation from the time I started would put my starting salary around $59,000. According to one site comparing cost of living, to have the same standard of living I have in Virginia, you'd need roughly twice my salary in Honolulu. Yikes. Not sure what island you live on or how COL compares there, but I've always heard it's expensive on the islands. Jumping up to $120K probably isn't the cards, though.

Also keep in mind that, despite your list of accomplishments, you haven't done that much and you still have a lot to learn. As my first boss told me my first day - in my first year the company would lose $50,000 as a result of hiring me, over and above my salary. This would be due to direct cost of training, opportunity costs (engineers training me not completing as much billable work), etc. And so they want to make that up over time. I've known several engineers who got no raises until they were licensed. I was fortunate - my employers gave me a cost of living adjustment of between 2 and 4% and every year, and then a 15% boost when I got my license.

Salary negotiations are tough. You may want to seek out a local engineering group (ASCE has SEI chapters all over) and get to know some other members. ASCE also has a good salary survey taken from members that tends to have a pretty good data set. That may give you some better numbers to base your claim on.

 

[dauwerda]

My experience and thinking lines up pretty well with phamENG.

I am surprised to see you list an hourly wage - I have never known any companies to pay hourly wages for Engineers and EIT's, they have all been salaried (some have paid straight time overtime based on what your hourly wage would be at 40 hours). Do you get paid overtime?

As my first boss told me my first day - in my first year the company would lose $50,000 as a result of hiring me, over and above my salary.

phamENG, do you believe this was accurate?

 

[phamENG]

I don't think it was in my case, but I can see how it could in many others. That boss essentially retired the next month, and his predecessors didn't put as much focus on training as he would have. So the direct training costs were a lot lower, but I know for several months there I was burning budgets like crazy. I was low overhead, which helped, but I know a few did come back in the red. I also had a 'previous life' before starting school to become an engineer, so I was able to adapt and find ways to add value faster than most college grads.

Now that I'm running my own show...I could see that cost adding up. If I spent 15 hours/week focusing on training a junior engineer - 3 hours/day - it would be close to $50k. It probably wouldn't be quite that much, but there would be losses from them directly until they found their groove.

 

[Aesur]

Like phamENG said, the starting salaries and salaries listed online are not entirely accurate because it's only representative of those who took the time to fill it out and many times you will find it's skewed toward larger cities (more people to fill out the surveys), which just happen to be in many of the states that have higher costs of living and therefore higher salaries and project fees. Being that you are in Hawaii, it is entirely possible that you fit into this scenario where you should be aiming for the higher salary. I am traveling there next week and not looking forward to the price of restaurants, etc..

Around my area, a starting salary would be around $47k a year and I would expect that as phamENG said, my company would lose at least $50k in the first year and maybe $15k the following year in training (when training is done properly that is). After 2 years I would expect $56k to $59k would be a target salary.

I believe asking for $70k is reasonable given location, start at $75k and see if they negotiate down. I suggest bringing with you lists of projects you have completed, if you have access to utilizations, profit on projects, etc. that will help as well. Right now it's an engineers market in much of the US as demand is high, however keep in mind if your salary is too high, you risk being one of the first laid off when the economy crashes again.

 

[theisland808]

phamEng - Thanks for the feedback! I hear what you're saying regarding costs to train a new employee, especially one fresh out of school. However, I think my story is a little similar to yours. Their hasn't been much focus on training really, and I believe it's because there's just so much work to do. We have a lot of work coming in from private and public sectors with public sector budgets being pretty large. I will admit though, I think I burned through the budgets on the first few projects given that I had to basically train myself.. it is what it is I guess... working to improve on that daily. I will try and look for SEI chapters near me, I know there is a SEAOH but the problem is everyone knows everyone in Hawaii, and inquiring travels far.. About 1/2 of the list of past presidents built their career in the company I work for now... Do you think asking for $75k and hoping they drop me down to $70k is reasonable as Aesur says? I get the feeling companies don't care COL is ridiculous. Fun fact... any single person making less than $67k in Hawaii is considered low income..

dauwerda - I get paid time and half for overtime but I try not to clock so much overtime because it burns through the budgets quickly. As a result? I get caught with the short end of the stick. Is what it is..

Aesur - where are you from? $47k starting seems really low... and yeah.. I mean better for them to pay me now and lay me off later than for me to not afford anything working right now. Hard being structural in Hawaii.

 

[JLNJ]

Ask you boss when salary administration takes place and what the procedure is. This is an easy entry into a salary discussion without just making demands.

Be able to talk about your value to the company and what you do on a daily basis that is clearly above your current pay grade. Be ready to defend yourself if they start pointing out your shortcomings.

 

[theisland808]

Thanks JLNJ, will look into that. I talked to a coworker who I trust and has been with the company for 10 years. He says that usually they would just randomly give raises at the end of the year but he never had a discussion with them or negotiated the wage.

I think the scenario in my office is everyone just doesn't ask about raises? Odd.. but yes, I will ask, I think my annual evaluation went really well. I discussed with them my goals and objectives for the next year which they were pleased with. I'm definitely ready to discuss my shortcomings as I only want to get better so whatever I can do to address that, I will.

 

[STrctPono]

If you don't mind me asking, is there anything else included beyond your $54,600 base pay? Your actual compensation may be more than this number if you are getting any sort of 401k matching contributions, end of year bonus, or assistance with health insurance premiums, etc. Time and a half is generous but it sounds like you don't really utilize it.

You sound like a good worker who is conscientious and is loyal to the firm. That pay in Honolulu (as you mentioned) is working poor level. If you're living at Mom and Dad's house, then I suppose you can save a significant amount and give yourself a leg up when it comes time to wanting to purchase your own place.

 

[Aesur]

@theisland808 - I am in Arizona, salaries here tend to be lower than most of the US, however cost of living in the state is also fairly low. We are starting to see fees increasing, however this market was and still is hurt by the amount of "one man shops" driving the prices down. As these individuals are starting to retire, we are seeing a less competitive market and therefore salaries are expected to rise to be more in line with average starting salaries in the US. Our firm is on the higher end of pay, however this is helped by the fact that we practice in other states where fees are higher and typically go after larger projects, letting the local one man shops stay busy with the smaller little to no-profit projects.

I would peg the US starting (fresh out of school) salaries around $50k as a real average with the more expensive places being higher, ie, NYC, Hawaii, Alaska, CA, etc.. Believe it or not, many principals in Arizona don't make salaries above $100k which is just sad.

I have been hearing rumors of engineers moving to AZ from CA asking for $100k+ salaries as a brand new engineer and getting laughed out the door; my take away from this is the market is very skewed based on level of complexity (ie high seismic versus low seismic, etc..), saturation of the market with too many engineers in certain areas and cost of living. Developers know this and will use this to their advantage driving prices down significantly.

I also know many engineers that work for the government, in various engineering fields and you would be surprised that their starting salaries are much lower than the averages posted above, unless they are H1B.

 

[Tomfh]

Yeah, take salary surveys with a grain of salt. Like other surveys of manhood they tend to be exaggerated.

 

[theisland808]

STrctPono - Was hoping you would see this and weigh in haha. How's that Hawaii life treating us lol.

The company also provides the following:
Health insurance (Dental,Drug&Vision)
Dental Insurance
Group Life Insurance (Covers 1 years worth of compensation)
401k plan but no match. Profit sharing is done at end of year based on commpany's performance. (Last year was $2500)
Bonus (Last year I got a $2500 bonus but not sure how that was determined. Mind you, this was the companies most profitable year so..)

They have other things like offering a townhouse to stay in near the beach for the weekend but that's once a year and based on lottery. Some years people don't get to go at all. I don't see myself using it but trying to list as much as possible)

You know how it goes in Hawaii, especially when you're young. I don't need the 401k, I need the paycheck, I can go turn that money into more money quicker than the 401k although I appreciate they try to give something via profit sharing. btw.. did you end up moving? I saw your thread not too long ago considering a move. My boss sounded like yours but he chilled out haha.

Aesur.. wow I looked at real estate in AZ, and CoL didn't seem THAT low.. but wow. I agree, funny part is even when you go to the bigger cities and get that $100k/yr, it isn't enough. Wages across all industries have been stagnant for years, and of course we all know here that structural engineers tend to be undervalued when it comes to total budget of the project.

Note: thank you guys for the feedback! Really appreciate it. Happy I joined eng-tips

 

[STrctPono]

You still need 2 years of experience left before you can sit for your SE exam. Asking for a small raise now seems reasonable depending on your boss' personality. You know him best and know whether or not he would take this as offensive (I know my boss would) or if he would see this as initiative and be receptive to it. The worst he can say is no. If so, you buckle down, study hard, pass your SE and then ask again (but this time for a bigger raise). If you don't get what you want at that point, then you go looking for another job.

Your benefits seem pretty run of the mill, except the retirement set up seems pretty skimpy.

Since discussions of Arizona are happening, and to give you a frame of reference for your current salary... I was offered $65,000 a year straight out of school at a design firm in Arizona 9 years ago.

Based on what you've said, I am 90% sure I know what company you work for. Our firms cross paths every once in awhile.

I have not moved. I struggle with this all the time, but the pay, the projects, and the environment are just too good to leave at the moment and I don't think I will find a better deal elsewhere.

 

[dik]

and most associations post average salary and not median... makes a bit of a difference... My first engineering job I was paid slightly less than $700 a month (or maybe it was every 2 weeks, but one or the other, memory fails)... times change.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Aesur]

@theisland808, The prices of homes have significantly increased over the past year, my house for instance is triple the value it was a year ago this time, salaries haven't caught up yet and real estate agents are raking it in currently. This is a result of many people fleeing CA and other states and moving here causing there to be a major shortage of housing in AZ at the moment, hence the rents downtown being over $3000/month for a 1 bedroom 600 sqft apartment. It's not sustainable and I'm just waiting on the crash.

@STrctPono, interesting, I started engineering in AZ back around 2011 and at the time the salaries were stagnant and low due to the slow recovery from the 2009 crash. A few years later there was a large demand and no engineers available, similar to current conditions. The largest firm in the state was at that time offering $43k/year starting salary, unless H1B, in which case they had to offer more (not sure that was actually legal). Pay was one of the contributing reasons I started a structural firm a few years back with a few other engineers and I haven't looked back since. Out of curiosity, do you work for a firm based out of Arizona but live in HI? If so I am fairly certain I know who you are.

 

[theisland808]

STrctPono - Haha you probably do know what firm I work at haha. I think I know yours too but I may be off. Guess we'll keep it quiet for now. I hear you about needing 2 more years before sitting for licensure but the thing is I wonder to myself "am I even going to be ready? I've come this far with little to no training. Mostly all self taught." Would you advise against asking a bit higher than $70k to land at $70k? Or would that be ridiculous in your opinion? Thing is I feel like nobody gets it because nobody asks, and I think if they say no, I'm willing to accept that and ask what do I need to do in order to get there because we can't be wasting time in Hawaii (as you know).

Arizona isn't happening.. I'm never leaving Hawaii. Was just looking for investment property in case salary is always going to look like this.

dik - less than $700/month? What year was this? 1960s?

 

[phamENG]

theisland808 - as for the amount of money, I don't know. There are a few numbers you need to get your hands on to figure out what you're worth to the company.

1) Your utilization rate. On its own this isn't all that valuable, but it's an important piece.
2) Your company's overhead multiplier. Generally speaking this is going to be 2.67. In other words, you cost the company 2.67x your salary. That covers benefits, your share of the electric bill, rent, non-billable employee time, etc.
3) What is your company's target profit margin? This can vary a lot. Some firms sit around 5% (which is pretty bad) and some big hitters can approach 30%. A typical target for a small engineering firm is probably 15-20%.
4) How much has your company billed for YOUR efforts in the last 6 or 12 months?

Now, do the math backwards. Take your target profit off the top, and divide by 2.67. What are you left with? This is roughly what you're worth to the company. If your salary is lower, ask for this amount and defend it. If it's higher...you might want to keep your mouth shut for a while. If that's the spot your in, look at the utilization number. Is it lower than 80%? That's likely your problem. If it's up above 95% (which, by the way, my insurance broker advises clients not to force those kinds of numbers, because it indicates you're either overworking your employees, neglecting training, or both, and that can lead to errors that result in claims) then you may not be working efficiently or quickly enough. The efficiency and quick part has always been my problem, but I managed to 'specialize' in the obscure, so I go to work on some higher margin projects.

 

[theisland808]

phamENG - Thank you for that, I'll try and probe around for some of that info. Seems pretty hard to get that without going to the boss and the internal accounting team, and when you're that deep, I feel like it's "why do you want to know?" and now we're talking about the raise haha. I do know that my billing rate is $133/hr as a Junior engineer on a project. I get paid $26.25/hr so that's 5x but I guess we'll need to see how much they billed based on my efforts. I have the numbers showing how much hours I logged but we'll see if I'm losing the company money.. doubt it or else my boss would have said something (he's not the type to be nice at all, and he has said that I've produced more work than my peers at our level during my evaluation) I think the company aims for 15% margin, and during the pandemic they actually doubled that is what I heard in a meeting not too long ago but we'll see. Thanks again!

 

[STrctPono]

Aesur, I had my suspicions that the company was very much okay with hiring a lot of Engineers when they got busy and laying off the dead weight when they got slow. I didn't take the job so I will never know but 2 of my college colleagues that worked there didn't stay more than a few years. I have learned that companies with high employee turnover are the ones you want to stay away from. The design firm that I work for currently has extremely low turnover. No, I do not work for an AZ firm. Earning AZ rates and living in HI would be ludicrous.

theisland808, How are all the other Engineers in the office living? Do they seem to make a comfortable living? Own homes? Send their children to private school? If so, then perhaps your firm does end up paying its employees decent wages and your future earnings will increase significantly with time. If it's only the upper management that is living comfortably and you have high turnover at the mid and junior level then that is an indicator of what you can expect for the next 15 years. Are you guys frantically busy? I would not ask for a raise if you are slow. If there are a lot of jobs coming down the pipeline, your boss is more likely to be comfortable with entertaining the idea than if he knows you guys are strapped for work. Even though you are currently in the working poor level of pay (I was also when I was 2 years in) there is an understanding that until you get your SE, you are in a bit of a "probation" period where you are still in training and cannot survive on your own so you need the firm. I would be hesitant to jump straight to asking for $70,000. Just to give you some perspective, I was also earning $26.25/hr when I was two years in but the difference being that I raked up a ton of OT and had a significant amount of money coming in through added benefits (no health insurance premiums, generous profit sharing, large bonuses, etc.) I have never felt underpaid.

 

[theisland808]

Phameng - Thank you, I will definitely look into those things. Some of that information seems hard to find without ringing any bells. I do know that they bill $133/hr for me as a Junior Engineer, I do have the hours I bill to projects, just need to determine the breakdown of hours billed on my behalf.

Strctpono - The other engineers in the office seem to live pretty well. However, most of them are single with no kids or have a spouse with no kids. Only management have kids haha so there's that. Yeah I hear management mostly sends kids to private school. We do have high turnover at the mid and junior level but I think it's because of how much work there is really and the lack of training. We are pretty busy, as I mentioned, I'm jumping between maybe 3-5, 6 at the most projects as a junior engineer at any time, and projections show that we should be busy for these next couple years. Yeah, the SE license man.. I think I'm just going to take your advice and really buckle down and sharpen my technical skills. I know the SEs in my company are really raking it in. Good point about the no health insurance premiums, I'm not sure I'd say my profit sharing was generous as I got $2500 but takes a while to get it vested, my bonus was about $2500 which is whatever, I'll take it but you know how far $2500 goes here.

Update: My boss called me up this morning and basically said they spoke with our president and recommended he promote me to Engineer II. With that being said, they also bumped my compensation up 12.6%? I think that amounts to $29.58/hr. Of course I'm grateful for it because some people are struggling to even get a raise but I think I knew I was going to jump over $60k/yr. I know I shouldn't dwell but it just makes me think.. had I negotiated a little on my starting, I would be closer to $70k/yr right now.

Moving forward I asked how I can continue climbing at this rate, the answer was to continue to build my technical skills of course, and slowly start by managing a project or two. Boss says that the company feels on my roles as I grow will be to mentor the younger engineers coming in. I'm working on getting some special inspection certifications so hopefully that will help a little to strengthen the resume.

Not sure when I'll bring up talks of another raise considering they just gave one. I don't wanna fight with them for any higher at the moment. guess I'll give it another year to grind and prove myself.