Structural engineering FEES

[JohnB001]

Hey guys,
I have a condominium project in Los Angeles i am trying to win where they need to replace 50 balconies. They asked me to estimate my fee and I did. They came back at me saying that all these 50 balconies are the same design so I am simply copy pasting and they will only pay 150$ per balcony structural design. Which will boil down to 7500$ total. Do you think that is fair? (It is a timber design btw).

 

[SWComposites]

Better talk to your insurance agent. Condos are notorious for claims and law suits. Your fee needs to cover your potential liability for 50 balconies.

 

[271828]

The 50 balconies might look the same, but are they? They could be of the same general configuration but if you have to look at every one of them closely and modify the sketches or drawings for every other one, then it's not just a simple copy.

 

[Tomfh]

Suppose they had to spend money fixing 50 balconies because of a fault attributed to your design, would they only seek damages for one balcony, or the whole lot?

 

[JoelTXCive]

I'm not familiar with the California market, but that sounds WAY too cheap to me.

How old is the structure? I doubt all 50 balconies will be the same. You will probably have some construction phase services and field modifications to deal with.

I'm thinking more like $500 per balcony. If they are trying to be so cheap on the front end, then maybe you should pass. Let this project be someone else's headache.

 

[JohnB001]

Tom, how much you think is a fair charge for that?

 

[BAretired]

Review the existing drawings before settling on a charge. It is unreasonable for your client to expect a fixed fee, sight unseen.

 

[Eng16080]

I consider decks and balconies the highest risk part of most structures, and I think condos are about the highest risk type of building in terms of potential litigation. So, for that combination, a fee of $150 per balcony seems like a joke. Off the top of my head, before I read the other responses, I was thinking I might consider this for $25-30k. It looks like JoelTXCive is in the same ballpark with $500 for each. Honestly, $100k worth of structural engineering fees for high-end single family homes is probably way less liability than this.

I would want to take the time to look at each balcony if I would be certifying each one. I doubt they're all the same.

 

[JohnB001]

We are actually re-doing then from scratch, so i an not certifying existing conditions. We are knocking then down and redesigning brand new ones. Does that constitutes less liability in your opinion?
I just opened my own engineering firm 4 months ago so this liability thing is all new to me.
Although i want to mention that an engineering company is hiring my company (which is only me atm) to do the job. Does that mean i can ask the engineering firm to sign that they would be taking the liability instead of me? I'd appreciate your advice since God knows I need it.

 

[Eng16080]

JohnB001, I understood that they are being rebuilt, but probably didn't explain myself very well. What I meant is that I would want to look at the existing conditions in all 50 locations where the new balconies are going to connect to the existing building in case there might be differences.

If it was me designing them, I would assume that I would be liable regardless of any other agreement. Maybe if you're not licensed you wouldn't be. If they are the ones stamping it, that may also remove liability but I'm not sure I would necessarily assume that.

Good luck with your new company. I recently did the same.

I think I would pass on this job if it was me, but then again it's easier said than done when you're trying to get work.

 

[Heaviside1925]

OP,
In term of possessional liability. You are offered some protection in the short term by acting as a contractor for another engineering firm and in the case of legal action, typically the deeper pocket's philosophy applies regardless of who stamped it, assuming the firm you are working for has a higher policy limit. The issue comes back around that unless the firm admits fault, which they likely won't because their insurance in paying out, you'll get both the firm and firm's insurance then suing you. Even if the firm doesn't, due to maybe a personal connection, the firm's insurance most certainly will. As many pointed out 20k-30k would seem much more appropriate than what you were offered. I would definitely talk to an attorney as well as your insurance to make sure you are doing everything within reason to protect yourself, business and livelihood. I mean this not to be critical, but you asked what was fair to charge and if I was dealing with a residential customer, I would have the same approach but, in your scenario, you are dealing with a condo developer and my question would then become, what will the market allow.

 

[JAE]

Here's a couple of past threads similar to this topic:
thread507-2505
thread507-513668

 

[JoelTXCive]

Here's another item to think about.

I'm assuming there are existing balconies there that are connected to the existing structure.

Those balconies are going to have to be demo-ed and your proposed balconies connected to the existing structure.

Who knows what the condition of the existing connections are? lag bolts? lag screws? Do you have an existing back span and centilevered decks? Who knows, but all that will have to be figured out. Maybe some connections are in great shape; and maybe some are terrible?

Is the demo contractor going to carefully remove the existing balconies? Or are they going to go crazy with the sawz-all and a sledge-hammer leaving you poor conditions to re-connect to?

 

[SWComposites]

So, what is the role in the project of this other engineering firm that wants to hire you? Kind of suspicious why they want to sub out what could be a real headache of a job.

You could (maybe, after consulting with your insurance co) design the new balconies for 7.5k, but state that the design does not include the connections to the building.

 

[hokie66]

SWComposites,
The connections to the building are likely the only structural design challenge, so how does your approach help?

JohnB001,
Why do the existing balconies need to be replaced? Water intrusion causing wood rot? Is there an architect involved in the restoration project? In addition to structural connections to the building, flashings could be the major challenge.

 

[Eng16080]

i want to mention that an engineering company is hiring my company

If you're getting $7,500 for this, I wonder what they get. It's possible that their fee is much higher.