Structural Engineering Law/Ethics/Moral Scenarios 1

[sforesman]

I'll offer up several hypotheticals, please offer your opinions, references to engineering law/ethics, etc.

1) Our firm completed a design of a large public timber framed canopy structure and was not hired to perform construction administration. Several years later a structural PE visits the area and notices that lateral braces were never installed. Is the PE required by, morals, ethics, law to report this to the local building official, the structure owner?

2) Repeat scenario #1 except the structural PE's firm did not complete the design of the structure and it is obvious to the PE that braces are needed for lateral stability.

3) Structural PE is hired to do a walk-through evaluation of a public recreational center to provide general recommendations for repairs to bring up to code compliance. If the building is in such disrepair that it could collapse, who does the PE tell? Just the owner, or does the building official need to be informed?

If anyone else has other scenarios please feel free to add.

 

[msquared48]

Life-safety above all else, regardless of the outcome.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[sforesman]

So, Mike, if you were to walk into any building, a shopping center, and saw something structurally that didn't look right, you would...

 

[msquared48]

After the last earthquake here, in 2001, I was walking downtown and observed severe hammering damage between a one story structure and a seven story structure, where the exterior masonry cladding of the higher building was severely damaged to the point of being out of plumb. As it had been 6 months since the earthquake and I had already been involved in several other fixes and was ATC certified at the time, I reported my concerns to the local building department in writing and let them handle it. It has since been addressed.

I did not let it go.

I would do the same in a shopping center if my guts gave me a bad feeling about the structure.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[Ron]

To directly address your scenarios....

1. Owner first, inform him that you will be letting the building official know as well, then do it.

2. Building official (no obligation to owner)

3. Since the building is a public building, tell the director of the building to evacuate and close the building, then call the building official, then follow all in writing.

I was recently driving around the back side of a shopping complex and noticed a natural gas meter behind a dumpster. The dumpster had no enclosure and was the type that has fork slots on either side and is picked up and lifted over the cab of the truck for dumping. It is then set back in place. In engaging the forks to pick up the dumpster, it was obvious that the driver was also sliding the dumpster along the pavement toward the gas meter. There were no protection bollards in front of the meter.

I sent an email to the local building official. A week later there were two bollards in front of the gas meter.

 

[hokie66]

Agree with Mike and Ron. I have taken the same approach, but in Australia the response is not always quick, which has required persistence. It is our responsibility to put the public first.

 

[sforesman]

Case #1 happened recently. I informed the owner in writing, and they have vowed to make repairs as necessary. No contact was made with the non-existant building official, since there isn't one.

To further play devil's advocate:
A) Could I be held liable if I were to walk into a public building with an obvious structural deficiency, not notice it, and then the building collapse?

B) Do I need to closely observe all public structures that I enter to look for deficiencies?

C) What about guards(handrails)? I almost never seen a public guard that was code compliant, do I need to comment on all of those?

Where does this end?

 

[Ron]

You have no obligation to seek out deficiencies in public buildings, but if you notice a life safety issue, you're obligated to report it.

 

[PeterStock]

I read about a case simalar to sforesman's A) senario. I believe it was in England where a chartered engineer was at a building site, not to inspect but just there, and was judged to be negligent for not noticing an obvious safety issue. I do not know if he noticed the issue or not.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

http://www.infotechpr.net

 

[hokie66]

Peter,
That is different. The engineer in England was a consultant on the job. In sforesman's case A), the engineer was just a visitor to the public building.

 

[IRstuff]

Aside from lawyers and law issues, this type of broad stroke liability just wouldn't make much sense. Unless the fault is blatantly obvious, there ought not be any expectation that you mentally run FEA on every building you enter. Without sufficient information about the construction, materials, loadings, etc., you cannot be reasonably expected to be able to determine the viability of a structure from a passing observation.

I have to believe that you are not liable for a building that you didn't design, review, etc. Otherwise, if a building collapses, the ambulance chasers would dig up list of engineers that MIGHT have been in the building and sue them all. I would hope most judges would reasonably toss out such suits, and slap contempt charges on anyone that tried that.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[rbulsara]

Engineers have no more moral responsibility or obligation to provide free service to public or a client, than say lawyers or doctors have. Are they obliged to provide their care or services to anyone they run into?

Same thing goes for Construction Admin services. If not specifically hired or paid for CA services, the design engineer is not responsible for it. Same as a doctor is not responsible, if his patient does not buy or take the prescribed medicine.

One is responsible for what he/she is contracted to do and paid for.


Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[patprimmer]

I think a doctor has a moral responsibility to stop and render assistance if he sees someone injured or in medical distress.

We complain about lawyers chasing ambulances just so they can offer a no win no charge (ie, no direct immediate cost)service. ;-)

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

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[patprimmer]

Mind you, the above does not mean to imply that I support the view that an engineer should be legally accountable for the integrity of any structure he did not design or specify or supervise.

Regards
Pat
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[rbulsara]

Yes. We agree. Distress situation is different. Engineers also respond to distress conditions and many states have special laws to protect them from lawsuits for services rendered during distress.

But a doctor is not supposed to render services to someone who meets on a train, who may have cancer or diabetes, which may eventually be fatal to the patient, without being consulted.

Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[hokie66]

It's just common sense that if you see something that is about to collapse, you do something about it. Not a matter of liability, just being a good citizen. A structural engineer may well spot a dangerous condition which is not evident to the untrained eye.

 

[patprimmer]

I have to agree 100% with hokie.

Regards
Pat
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[patprimmer]

hokie

That agreement is nothing to do with RE suggesting you where left of target in another thread. ;-)

Regards
Pat
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