Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest 6

[SEOH]

Hello,

Looking for sanity check on a project we are working on...

We are preparing a bid for a project in Nebraska for a 3 story, 35,000 sq. ft. Motel. Very basic design- shallow foundations, wood shear walls, wood joists, steel girders, repetitive floors, reasonable spans, etc. Hoping others could provide insight into approximate structural engineering costs for a job like this. Assume about 10 sheets of drawings, associated calculations. Project construction cost is estimated at $4,000,000.

We are estimating right around 0.5% of construction cost.

Kind Regards

 

[DaveAtkins]

In my experience, 0.5% is on the low side, especially if you are expected to be involved during the bidding and construction phases.

At 0.5% of $4,000,000, your fee is $20,000. This works out to be $2,000 per sheet. Again, sounds too low.

Did you do a detailed breakdown of the work required, to get a more accurate fee?

DaveAtkins

 

[SEOH]

Thanks Dave,

What have you been seeing in your area for this type of job? I've heard anywhere from .5% to 1.25% of construction cost. As well as $.40 per sq. ft to $1.25 per sq. foot. So the price varies A LOT.

 

[jayrod12]

Simple construction materials doesn't necessarily lead to simple drawings and details. That's where the large variance in fee levels comes from I bet.

Is the layout fairly rectangular with the walls nicely stacking and no stupid bumpouts etc? Have you done a bunch of these previously that you can pilfer a bunch of the details from? If so, then you may be able to get away with .5%. If not, you may want to look at increasing that. You do need to make sure you stay competitive however.

 

[dik]

For a simple 3 storey structure with fair repetition, I would think 0.8% minimum, 8 drawings + 2 drawings notes (reduced hours - 16 hrs ea), no specs, no construction review, and no regular scheduled site meetings.

Dik

 

[SEOH]

jayrod12-
yes this is a very easy layout. rectangular, nicely stacked, no bumpouts, etc. Pretty 'boiler plate'. Yes, we have very similar projects to grab standard details from.

dik- thanks for input. those seem like fair numbers.

 

[dik]

SEOH:
On that basis, you win some and you lose some... I would guess, maybe $35,000 minimum... or maybe $34,998, in case someone else is going in at $35,000.

Dik

 

[rb1957]

do you mean someone who reads eng-tips ?

now they'll bid $34996 !

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

 

[bnickeson]

If your client is from this area of the country (Nebraska), you'll probably get 0.55% max, if that. Some of you folks must have some awfully generous clients (or we have the wrong ones!) to give some of the fees you're proposing! We can't even get 0.8% most of the time for a messy addition on an old building with no existing drawings.

If you've done projects like this before and have some of the details and methodology down, I'd say shoot for 25k. I'd think that'd be plenty for a relatively simple building like you're describing.

 

[dik]

rb1957.... do I hear $34,995 <G>... great post...

 

[CBSE]

We engineers are gradually value engineering ourselves out of profit. Just wait until they sell the building and the real estate agent gets 3.5% of the purchase price for his split...and no liability. I'm not sure we are the smart ones in this commercial business.

That conversation aside, historically, I start with a base % fee and a base $/sqft. I then talk with the architect about what complexities there could be and start adding in additional costs for every new detail I anticipate having. I have an average time it takes me to do a single detail for different materials...which is nice. I think around the $25k would probably be reasonable. BUT, if the architect decides they want a lot of windows, that will certainly change.

I also always put a disclaimer stating that my fee is based off the conceptual drawing provided and that I reserve the right to adjust the fee based on more complex conditions if the concept changes. Has worked out more than a few times.

 

[spieng89]

What CBSE says:

"We engineers are gradually value engineering ourselves out of profit. Just wait until they sell the building and the real estate agent gets 3.5% of the purchase price for his split...and no liability. I'm not sure we are the smart ones in this commercial business."

Please as structural engineers stop pricing jobs as if we are selling our services out of Walmart. It does a disservice to the profession as a whole. I know some of us have kids to feed, mortgages, etc. but if you look at the top firms in structural/architectural engineering they're not cutting fees, it's the opposite. Price the job based on the level of quality you will produce. If the client wants a cheaper product, start removing deliverables as mentioned above...specs, site visits, etc.

 

[SEOH]

Thank you all for the input. We typically quote from the bottom up by estimating the actual hours times the blended billing rate. On this job though, it is very straightforward and when you add up the hours and get the final number it just "feels" too low. Now the real question is do you maintain a higher price and lose to your competitors, or join them on the ride down? It is a lose-lose situation unfortunately.

 

[dik]

SEOH:
Generally price on estimated time, number of drawings, and project value and pick a number consistent with the 3 prices.

Dik

 

[SEOH]

what is everyone using for price per sheet? assuming 'average' complexity. Also include general area of country if you don't mind.

 

[bowlingdanish]

We engineers are gradually value engineering ourselves out of profit. Just wait until they sell the building and the real estate agent gets 3.5% of the purchase price for his split...and no liability. I'm not sure we are the smart ones in this commercial business

I have thought this from the moment I first saw a fee proposal. This great profession was already ruined by those before me who weren't able to protect their industry and fight for remuneration that is reflective of the study and training required, difficulty, and liability we accept. You don't have to look past Lawyers and Doctors, both service industries that sell their knowledge not products, to see how this should have been done. We get on our high horse about helping the community and how pursuit of money is an undesirable trait, but the reality is low balling each other without any common union results in the quality of service declining, not our moral standing increasing. It's a disgrace. /rant

 

[cvg]

I'm not a structural, but I was using $2,000 per sheet about 30 years ago for simple waterline jobs. I guess it's all relative. Current project is about $70 million and the fee is approaching 10%. We rarely bid projects, almost always negotiate the fee after qualifications based selection.

 

[WARose]

[blue](SEOH)[/blue]
what is everyone using for price per sheet? assuming 'average' complexity. Also include general area of country if you don't mind.

Its hard to say what the "average" would be. For situations where it's just a matter of getting it drawn (i.e. minimal calculations)....I'd allocate about 50 hrs per sheet (I've got an excellent drafter working for me). From that base, it only goes up (as much as 120 hrs per sheet).

If I had to give an average (lately) I'd say about 80 hrs per sheet. Considering what we bill out at.....that comes out to $7600/sheet. (I'm in the southeast USA by the way.)

 

[CBSE]

I will have to agree that the price per sheet is tricky and is really all over the board. Price is at times also location specific. Where I'm at, I live in a very rural area but do a lot of work in metropolitan/city areas. When I first started branching out, I would get comments from architects that my fees are way to low (which, I was really glad that they were being honest about it) and would tell me my fees needed to be more than what I proposed...it was an eye opener. I wasn't actually charging less than where I got my training from, but the location and the going rate was driving it. There are states that I do work in that I used fees from other states/cities and got laughed out of the room.

As to the comment about estimated hours and the final cost "feeling low"...if it feels low, it probably is low and your intuition is telling you to raise it. Just because you "think" it will take 2 hours, doesn't mean you shouldn't bid it for 4 hrs due to the liability involved and the amount of unknowns with a conceptual set of drawings.

We are a service based industry. I think we are the lowest discipline on the totem pole even though we take a much greater risk than the others in the event something is missed or fails. I have never thought we are compensated for the risk that we assume.

 

[mtu1972]

Throughout my career hours per drawing were a primary focus. One employer had three estimating procedures similar to those noted above. 1) Define all of the tasks and assign hours to each; 2) Estimate the number of drawings and use an hours/drawing average; 3) Percentage of project cost or Architects fee. Hourly billing rates used to determine cost for 1 and 2 above. Usually 2 and 3 were compared and 1 was used only if there was too great a difference between the other two.

My tabulated hours ranged from 28 to 45 depending on complexity, with an overall average of 40 hours/drawing. They hours break down to about 1/3 Engineer and 2/3 Drafter/Designer.



gjc