Structural Fees - Non Standard OWSJ Analysis 2

[Deener]

Hey guys,

Looking to get a sanity check on reasonable rates for a structural analysis. I've had a few projects that involve the evaluation of an existing OWSJ for additional loading (i.e. rooftop unit, pipe hangers, etc). Here's a breakdown of what the work involves:

1. Site visit for OWSJ measurement and identification.
2. review of proposed equipment layout and derivation of additional loading (could include snow drifting).
3. Most of the time these turn out to be custom made joists (i.e. not in SJI tables) so next step requires inputting the joist into a structural analysis software (I use skyciv).
4. Determination of internal forces in each member compared to resistance.
5. Drawings showing required reinforcement OR memo stating OWSJ can withstand the proposed additional loads.

Let's assume site is within an hours drive. Any idea of a ballpark budget you would give for this?

Thanks in advance!

 

[phamENG]

If you want a sanity check, you should offer your fee and let us comment on the sanity of it.

 

[jayrod12]

Often the fees are based on locale. I know the fees I would charge here may be far lower than other areas. I honestly can't imagine we'd be higher than too many other locations.

the other issue with commenting on the fees, how many joists are affected? Are there different joist configurations that may require additional measuring and analysis? Are there other alternatives that you could do to avoid reinforcing joists?

It truly is one of those scenarios where you can't blanket statement the fees.

Some buildings I've been in have the identical joist all the way along, and therefore the site trip is to only measure up one joist. I've also had situations where I've had to measure 3 or 4 different ones due to location of unit and framing scheme in the area. Sometimes the unit can be moved to a more optimal spot structurally to avoid much reinforcing, other times the location is 100% locked and we just have to make things work structurally.

 

[DaveAtkins]

Will you be including rental of a scissor lift to gain access to the joists? Are you qualified to operate a scissor lift, or will you have a contractor do it while you ride in the basket?

How big is the roof? How many joist types do you anticipate?

Do you need to also analyze the roof beams? The columns? The footings?

Do you have someone review your calculations?

What is the deliverable? A report? Sealed and signed calculations?

Make sure you exclude reinforcing of joists which do not pass. That would be an additional fee.

DaveAtkins

 

[Aesur]

I'm with others here, give us a breakdown of what you want us to compare. As jayrod12 said, my local is probably on the lower end as well for this type of work.

Normally when I price these projects, I have some sense of the framing layout of the building, I then price each "new condition" unit at a higher new unit fee, and each reuse (sim condition to another one on there) at a lower reuse fee (usually half price for these). Most of these are "roof checks only" and do not include strengthening, so I have a statement in there that says if strengthening is required, an additional add service will be required. This gives me the chance to find out exactly what we have and run the calculations based on 5% increase in gravity or look at joist tables first and if that doesn't work it gives me the ability to adjust fee based on what is actually needed. I guess the exception here is if the joists are custom joists, maybe I should look at adding some verbiage along the lines of if it is found to be non-standard, custom fab joists then add services will be required to throw those into something like RISA as that can be quite a bit of work, luckily fairly rare for us locally.

As DaveAtkins noted, there are other considerations as well, so it is good to have an idea of what the mechanical unit weights are before pricing, or at least tonnage as there are charts out there that will give you rough weights based on tonnage, as well as experience. This allows you to determine if you need to check more, ie columns, footings etc. Obviously adding a 10,000 pound unit will cost more to check than a 1000 pound unit (at least it should). Keep in mind that in my experience, mechanical engineers charge based on cost of equipment, so there is more fee available for larger units at least.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I'd base my estimate on the number of hours and who I expect to be doing the work:

1. Site visit for OWSJ measurement and identification.
(Approximately 3 hours at the rate of the person (or people) who will be in the field. This includes assumed travel time and travel expenses.)

2. review of proposed equipment layout and derivation of additional loading (could include snow drifting).
3. Most of the time these turn out to be custom made joists (i.e. not in SJI tables) so next step requires inputting the joist into a structural analysis software (I use skyciv).
4. Determination of internal forces in each member compared to resistance.
(I probably lump items two through four together. Maybe 6 hours of a staff engineer. 1 hour for the EOR.)

5. Drawings showing required reinforcement OR memo stating OWSJ can withstand the proposed additional loads.
(Assuming CAD work of 2 hours minimum, maybe more at whatever rate I charge for my CAD work. An hour for the staff engineer. Maybe 2 hours for the EOR).

My tendency is to believe that this is the type of job that I would have under bid in the past. Hence an effort to be more "realistic" with my estimated hours.

Maybe I really want that work. Or, I'm trying to land this new client. Or, I've done enough of this work that me and my staff can work it more quickly. In those cases, I might discount the hours between 33 and 50% off of what I've listed.

 

[phamENG]

I've done enough of this work that me and my staff can work it more quickly. In those cases, I might discount the hours between 33 and 50% off of what I've listed.

Necessary price adjustments to remain competitive notwithstanding, this is something I do not do. My efficiencies (gained from experience or investment in developing a time saving tool) are my competitive edge and a means of improving my business performance. Reducing my fee by a proportionate amount discounts either the value of my experience or the time invested in developing whatever tool I've used to get it done faster. Just my 2 cents.

 

[XR250]

Agreed. The fact that I can finish a job twice as fast as I used to be able to = 2 times more money in my pocket. Sounds like $5,000 +/- $2,500 ballpark.

 

[TLHS]

I think this is the sort of thing where it doesn't really matter what the number 'should' be. You're going to get guys willing to sign off blind for small loads and you'll never beat them. Scope it, decide what level of effort you need for it, and just roll with it. If you do it a couple of times, adjust with what your experience is. Other people's level of comfort and standard of care are going to vary wildly. Whether you get more of this type of work is likely more going to depend on whether the contractor or clients you're working with find you helpful than if you're off the dollar value by 10%.

If you have to cut the number enough that you can't do the level of effort that makes you comfortable then it's not sustainable anyway.

If you're trying to buy your way into a client or type of work, then it's different.

 

[Deener]

Hi All,
Thanks for the great feedback. Here's my best shot at addressing your comments.
@phamEng - I got wind that a large engineering firm was charging $2800 CDN. That seemed a little low. I figured I was going in around $3500 to $5000

@ Dave Atkins
-scissor lift is provided and I'm the certified operator.
-24'x40' bay all with identical joists
-point loads only affecting two joists.
-OWSJ analysis only. The remaining structure is covered by building engineer.
-no one reviews my calculations. I'm a one man show.
-Scenario 1 deliverable will be a sealed report stating the existing joists are good for the loading. A drawing will also be provided with the loading details.
-Scenario 2 deliverable will be a sealed report stating the OWSJ requires reinforcement. A drawing will be provided with the loading details and the required reinforcement.

@Aesur - SJI has confirmed for me that these are custom joists. I wonder if the fab shop would have the same level of care with their welds than at a SJI certified shop.

@Josh Plum -- Let's say 14 hrs at $200/hr and you're bang on to what the large firm comes in at.

@XR250 - I agree. Once a reasonable fee is developed, any additional efficiencies ought to stay in our pockets.

@TLHS - thanks - hoping to not be a blind sign off kind of guy. This is a client which could lead to lots of repeat work if I'm useful with a practical cost.

To add some more context, the point loads being evaluated will likely be somewhere in the ballpark of 250 to 400 lbf. Relatively small but two of these point loads will occur along the span of a single joist.

I'd like to think my fees also reflect the risks inherent with this custom analysis.

 

[kipfoot]

I think that part 5(a) could be equal or more than the fee of the rest of it. It's a relatively straight forward exercise to add time for a site visit, measurement, and analysis. If it works, great! you're done.

If it doesn't work, then all hell breaks loose. You spend time trying to find a practical way to reinforce trusses that have stuff connected to them all over the place. You spend days detailing it in a way that can be understood and when your drawings finally get to fabricators the owner learns that the cost of the reinforcement is more than the mechanical equipment and maybe they should have followed your initial advice to use small units spread out over the roof rather than the one huge behemoth so now they have to put the friggin thing they already bought on the ground behind the gymnasium.

so yeah, break it into two fees.

 

[dik]

Be grateful you don't have snow accumulation loads... these are often greater than the mechanical equipment.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik