Structural vs Civil Engineering Pay 1

[swooneyWOODSTRUCT]

So I just passed my PE Civil-Structural exam and applied for my PE license. I am busy preparing for negotiations with my boss about pay after I receive my license. All of the resources I am finding have little/no pay statistics for structural engineering, just civil. Can I use civil salaries for the purposes of negotiating or are the salaries very different? Which sector tends to make more?

For a little background: I have a B.S. in Civil Engineering but all of my elective classes focused on structural. I have also been working at the same structural engineering firm for the last 7 years (2 as an intern during college and 4 full-time after I graduated).

 

[NorthCivil]

you gotta know your worth, to know your worth my friend.

 

[DaveAtkins]

In my experience, civil and structural engineer salaries are comparable.

DaveAtkins

 

[phamENG]

You can use whatever you want to negotiate...but it'll be up to you to prove that it's applicable.

Do you know how your firm calculates billable rates, overhead, etc? Do you know the firms overall direct labor multiplier? If so, you can look at your billables and how much revenue you are responsible for. Broad strokes, take that number, divide it by about 3.75. That's roughly what your base salary should be. That's assuming a direct labor multiplier of 3 (average for the industry) and employment costs and benefit package paid by the employer equaling roughly 25% of your base salary.

 

[Eng16080]

It's also worth considering that your value to the company is largely based on how difficult you would be to replace. If your company has been struggling to hire engineers and is currently understaffed, that gives you much more leverage.

 

[fel3]

pham…

Everywhere I have worked, the target net labor multiplier was in the 2.9-3.2 range and it included the 25% burden you mentioned and provided for about a 10% profit. So, someone making $50/hr would charge out at about $145/hr to $160/hr.

============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[HDStructural]

I have seen numbers similar to what fel3 mentioned. It also depends on the size of the company. Larger companies have the multipliers in the 2.9 - 3.2 range. Smaller companies can be in the 1.9 - 2.4 range from my experience.

 

[swooneyWOODSTRUCT]

HDStructural,

My company is very small, about as small as they come. My current multiplier is 3.4, including benefits. The raise I want to ask for would keep me at the same multiplier, but my pay would increase due to the fact that we bill more for PE's. Does that sound reasonable?

 

[phamENG]

My experience is the opposite, HDStructural. Large companies can take advantage of certain aspects of economies of scale and shifting work between markets to where salaries are lower, allowing them to push that number lower while maintaining their margins. To make any money at all a small shop has to be about 2.7.

fel3 - that sounds about right. The profit margin that I'm accustomed to looking for is closer to 20% to 30%, so they included the full cost of employment in the direct labor multiplier. I'm working by myself right now, so I don't really track it too closely, but that was the target for my old firm.

 

[phamENG]

swooneyWOODSTRUCT - yes, as long as you can maintain the same billable hours and thereby increase your attributable gross revenue at your new, higher rate, then I'd say asking for a proportional pay increase would be well founded.

 

[milkshakelake]

I don't have a market report or anything, but from personal experience, I worked first at a large company and then a small company. In the small company, my starting salary was far higher, and it almost doubled by the time I left. So I'm not sure about the distinction between small and large companies. It depends on your supervisor and their perceived valuation of you, and what you bring to the table. Of course, both of my experiences could be outliers, but it's my own experience.

 

[Eng16080]

Where I used to work, my multiplier was about 3x. I ran some rough numbers on what I thought my employer's costs would be and concluded that the number must include a lot of fluff, like subsidizing employees who weren't very billable (new engineers), etc. I would also tend to think that a larger company ought to be more efficient than a smaller one, but then again, larger organizations seem to be less organized from what I've observed. I also think the 3x must already include a decent profit margin. The employer want you to think that they're losing money below this multiplier, but I tend to doubt that.

Being self-employed now for only a short period of time, I can say that, so far, making an equivalent amount of money by myself now takes much less effort. On the other hand, I can also see the problem in potentially having an employee, especially if they have minimal experience, and then perhaps the 3x multiplier does make more sense.

Anyway OP, ask for your raise. If it's that important to you and you don't get it, start looking for other employment. Unfortunately, the best raises usually come when switching jobs.

 

[Aesur]

My company is very small, about as small as they come. My current multiplier is 3.4, including benefits. The raise I want to ask for would keep me at the same multiplier, but my pay would increase due to the fact that we bill more for PE's. Does that sound reasonable?

Keep in mind that just because your bill rate increases it does not mean the project fees do, so you will most likely be expected to perform at a higher level, ie. completing projects in less time than you currently are, else you risk having a lower real multiplier if only comparing to your hourly bill rate. It's best to compare your salary to the dollar amount of work you complete, however this is hard as there are PM's, Drafters and other Engineers typically on the same projects.

I would tend to say Civil salaries in the SW are higher than Structural by about 15 to 20% sadly. I don't know anything about salaries in your local market, so cannot any better information, but in the SW, 5 years PE out of college, I would expect to be in the 60 to 70k range; it's sad that engineers didn't seem to take advantage of the abundance of work and cost of living increases and raise fees like they should have in the SW.

 

[Eng16080]

Keep in mind that just because your bill rate increases it does not mean the project fees do, so you will most likely be expected to perform at a higher level

That's a great point. I always got a kick out of it when they would raise our rates. We'd all be looking at each other thinking how we're suddenly supposed to be 10% more efficient now. I remember a couple jobs where I basically blew the budget just writing the proposal because my rate was so high and somebody agreed to do the job for way too little.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

This is a bit dated, but Structure magazine did some salary surveys awhile back. The numbers certainly look kind of low to me. But, I live in California where everything is more expensive.

https://www.structuremag.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/D-ProfIssues-Aug17.pdf

In my experience, civil and structural engineer salaries are comparable.

I could swear that 15 yeas ago or so (I know... I'm old), I saw a salary survey that suggested civil engineers specializing in structures were paid significantly higher than other civil disciplines. Somthing like 20 or 30% higher!

For the life of me I don't know where I saw that. Structure magazine, the defunct "Structural Engineer" magazine, Structural Engineer's Association... I just don't know there was a big salary survey 5 or so years ago. Maybe that's the one I linked to in Structure Magazine.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Oh, I think it was NCSEA or SEAoC that did the big salary survey. Check their website for results.

 

[bugbus]

These are the salaries in Australia based on a recent survey (in $AU obviously):

Effectively no difference between any of these

 

[GregLocock]

Super in this context being a compulsory employer paid 10% (ish) into your superannuation account. Exchange rate is about 0.67 at the moment.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[Heaviside1925]

At the last firm I worked for, we paid our SEs on average about 10% more than our civils. Of course, seniority and experience were factors as well but a big part of it was the state the firm was in and what was required to be stamped. I would consider, how much is your stamp worth to your company? Another factor to consider is that you work for a very small firm. I think some other posts alluded to it, but does your company need another SE? Do you have a good repour with the owner? They may do what it takes to keep you regardless of if they need to pay you more than market. Unless you are contractual obligated or possibly obligated by your personal life, i.e. don't want to relocate family or whatnot, I'd see what other offers are out there to a least get a feel for what market is doing regionally and nationally.

 

[RenHen]

The ASCE also does a salary survey that members can access the results for, the 2024 one hasn't come out yet but 2023 is still available.