Stupid Construction Questions 1

[bridgebuster]

Ordinarily, I don't like to call field people stupid - I spent many years in construction and still do field work - but see attached photo. Today, the resident engineer sent an RFI asking "is this OK?"

 

[OSUCivlEng]

By "local agency" I assume you mean county or city government. Those types of projects have very little oversight in my neck of the woods.

RHTPE and Bridgebuster,

In my experience as a bridge engineering consultant to a DOT I have never reviewed any shop drawings for any bridge I have designed. The drawings are turned into the Project Manager at the DOT and I may never hear from it again unless it requires a revision during the bid process. I also see a lot of resident engineers who won't make any decisions and are quick to pass the buck to someone else.

Is this a normal procedure with other DOTs?

 

[RHTPE]

OSUCivlEng, I just finished helping a contractor resolve falsework issues with a cast-in-place integral abutment bridge over a small watercourse. The on-site inspector passed the falsework drawings on to the regional engineer who in turn passed them on to the design consultant. The design consultant then questioned the analysis done for the falsework, some of which was easily resolved with supplemental calculations provided by me. However a couple of sticking points could not be easily resolved, so everyone between the contractor and the design consultant took a "hands off" attitude. Which, in turn, brought construction to a halt. BTW this was in CT.


Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[HgTX]

The tendency that I've seen with regard to bridge shop drawing review is that someone from the EOR's firm (whether that's the agency or an outside consultant) reviews the shop drawings. This review may be quite cursory or they may go at it like a detailing checker. State budgets are such that it is more likely to be the former. Also, the review stamp may just say "no exceptions taken" or it may include 5 inches of fine print disclaimer about how anything that's still wrong with the drawings after this review is still the fabricator's fault. Some DOTs want a DOT review AND an EOR review. I cannot say that the double review makes anything go more smoothly.

Hg

 

[bridgebuster]

I work mostly in NY, on a state DOT project the EOR usually reviews shop drawings and contractor calculations, sometimes DOT will review things exclusively; depends on the budget. On projects for NYC agencies, it sometimes works the same way; sometimes the job gets built and the EOR never sees anything. It all comes down to money.

 

[OSUCivlEng]

I've never understood why anyone would want to review shops for something they had no hand in designing, but that's just me. Then again I've always been puzzled as to why the designer/EOR is usually not involved in the construction process at all. As a designer you spend all this time designing and checking calcs and pouring over drawings and details. The designer probably understand better than anyone else how it should be built. Then we wonder why there are so many engineers who know so little about construction.

 

[hokie66]

In buildings and industrial structure, the design engineer reviews shop drawings. I don't know why that would not be the case in bridges.

 

[gwynn]

I've never understood why anyone would want to review shops for something they had no hand in designing, but that's just me. Then again I've always been puzzled as to why the designer/EOR is usually not involved in the construction process at all. As a designer you spend all this time designing and checking calcs and pouring over drawings and details. The designer probably understand better than anyone else how it should be built. Then we wonder why there are so many engineers who know so little about construction.

You may want to rephrase the bolded, due to the italicized points you have raised. In my experience as an engineer working for the contractors who build bridges, the design engineer/EOR understands better than anyone what should be built, not how.

 

[OSUCivlEng]

You may want to rephrase the bolded, due to the italicized points you have raised. In my experience as an engineer working for the contractors who build bridges, the design engineer/EOR understands better than anyone what should be built, not how.

Yes I agree, I should have written what instead of how. However, I don't understand if someone doesn't know HOW things are built, why anyone thinks it's a good idea to put together a set of plans that explain WHAT to build. Contractors and engineers would better serve each other's interests if the engineers were actually involved in the construction process. Even the resident engineers I meet have very little understanding about how a set of plans goes together or frankly how to design anything.

I never pass up an opportunity to go to a job site, but for some reason my boss doesn't share my opinion.

 

[RHTPE]

Hokie66 - In my corner of the world, the EoR (design consultant) does review bridge related shop drawings. Unfortunately there is the issue of 'Who does the coordination of the various shop drawings?' Is that the design engineer's responsibility by contract, or is that assumed to be done by the DOT's regional or field engineer? Or maybe it has been assumed to have been done by the contractor. Venders who prepare shop drawings do not always think beyond the surface that their product attaches to, and will sometimes simply detail the product only. Who does the composite of all of the various shops for permanent items?

One of my niches is concrete formwork, shoring & falsework. Do you know how many formwork drawings are done with little consideration of where the rebar is and how it affects the form ties needed to hold the forms together? There's nothing more aggravating to find that the highest loaded taper tie in a 24' high wall form can't be installed because of the #8 footing dowel, plus the #8 vertical tied to it, blocks the tie hole in the form. Or to have set an expensive wall form panel only to watch the rebar installer come along and drill holes in it for dowels (for the wall that gets placed later).

Personally, I feel shop drawing synchronization belongs in the hands of the contractor. Could every vendor do a more thorough job at detailing their respective shop drawings, and showing how their product(s) integrate with the rest of the work? Sure. But only the exceptional detailers understand the inter-relationship of every component, whether within their scope or not - many do not.

In the OP's case, perhaps next time the bridge designer will be more explicit in specifying structural connection locations so as to avoid the potential conflict. Perhaps he/she might actually pay more attention to these kinds of items when reviewing shops. Often times though, the individual reviewing shop drawings is the newer hire who is still trying to get his/her bearings in the world of construction.

Sorry to rant a bit, but this is how I see it.


Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[gwynn]

OSUCivlEng

I completely agree. I think it would be worthwhile for designers to spend as much time in the field as they can, and even take a switch to the other side if possible and design a few of the temp works.