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Stuxnet 2

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beej67

beej67

Civil/Environmental
May 13, 2009
1,976
Lets talk hypothetically for a second, and lets strip out the religion and politics, since that won't really address the business ethics issue. Heck, I personally wouldn't work for a company that made weapons in the first place, unless my customers were responsible private citizens.

Lets say you work for a manufacturing company that produces hardware often used by government entities in expensive, sensitive work relating to national security. Another government entity or small group of government entities approaches you to provide expertise in a complicated plot to sabotage your own hardware for one of your other customers, whom they oppose politically.

Do you do it at all? If you felt justified in aiding the sabotage of your other customer, for political or other reasons, why did you sell that customer the hardware in the first place? And here's the one I really can't get my head around - Do you ask to be paid for your help in sabotaging your other customer?

I welcome opinions of all flavors on this, but I especially welcome informed opinions from people who have worked for international government agencies and had to deal with this sort of conflict of interest before.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
 
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Ever see an ad for store A that says we will not be undersold on item #123456 computer? Try to find item #123456 at another store, it won't be there. Item #123456 even though comparable in all specs to item #987654 sold at store B, is only made for store A. Making unique product items is not new.



"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli
 
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Up to 1990s, there was never a war between two nations that had McDonald's restaurants. The Balkan conflict was the first.
 
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Stuxnet = US government program.

I used to work at a place that made pharmaceutical equipment. Mentioned Stuxnet to a couple of the automation people there, 'do you have any protection or security against viruses or exploits?' . Blank stares.
 
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Interestingly, the automation and connectivity that's supposed to make our lives and jobs simpler, aren't...

TTFN
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7ofakss
 
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beej67, perhaps it varies between those who make targets...

Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​
 
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Generally, business is business as long as it doesn't violate business or professional ethics. However, many people cannot be separated from their core beliefs, biases, philosophies, etc. so easily; consequently, they're always in play somehow to some degree. This, to me, is what creates the complexities of life. Each situation has to be viewed within context. Providing engineering for BBHS A/B, where economic and market share competition are important, is different than defense/offense between nations, where national sovereignty, life, resources, government entities, physical boundaries, etc. are important. I am not a conspiracy theorist but people do conspire to topple one another all the time and nations are comprised of people. Political elections are the most obvious example of conspiracy to "overthrow" another.

To me, it's not much different than manufacturers somehow obtaining the competition's equipment for study, copy, etc. to gain market share. Of course, I will fully acknowledge I probably don't understand the full scope of all matters.

moon161 said:
Mentioned Stuxnet to a couple of the automation people there, 'do you have any protection or security against viruses or exploits?' . Blank stares.
Click to expand...

Efforts have been underway to develop standards to strengthen security on control systems. Stuxnet helped bring that issue to the forefront yet some companies are very proactive thus have well developed security standards on systems, which are well over a decade old.

IRstuff said:
Interestingly, the automation and connectivity that's supposed to make our lives and jobs simpler, aren't...
Click to expand...

I see it a bit differently. I see how they've made life much simpler and in some ways more enjoyable. After all, we enjoy eng-tips quite a bit.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
 
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The simplicity comes at a rather huge cost; where there are armies of people trying to protect us against hacks, worms, Trojan horses, etc. And that's an example of the reversal in simplicity; we've developed an entire lexicon and argot to describe all the bad things that can happen to our computers that didn't exist 30 years ago.

As for knowledge about things like Stuxnet, that's endemic pretty much everywhere; machine operators must defer to their IT guys that deal with that, just like us with our PCs. I remember a time when we would get a virus update and we would look to see what new things were added; they're now just something that happens, completely in the background. And, of course, there are TONS of people who still don't seem to understand or care about the fact that they computers or websites have been compromised because they didn't use prophylactics.

TTFN
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7ofakss
 
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Just means jobs for people laid off in industries that have gone by the wayside, if they want to train for them. There is usually good and bad with new things in life but we must move forward.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
 
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The problem is that while the need exists, there's not any money to fund the solution. Some j-random mom&pop e-commerce website doesn't have the expertise or the money to acquire the expertise to protect their website, and they wind up subsidizing someone else's phishing site. Happens on a daily basis.

TTFN
faq731-376
7ofakss
 
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No.

I work for a company, on equipment related to national security for some government entity X. Another government entity Y (even the same government) approaches me. I tell them that I'm not at liberty to discuss entity X's business with them. That's how security clearances work. Its all a matter of compartmentalization, to keep the 'need to know' under control.

If entity Y needs some information on X's project, they can work through X, who will in turn modify the scope of their contract with us to include Y. Otherwise, no deal.

There are established procedures for doing classified work under security clearances. Even if I'm NOT working on a classified project, anyone asking me to do what sounds like it should be covered by a clearance (like they ask me not to discuss their business with others), I'd decline until they go through the DIA (Defense Intelligence Agency) to get me the proper clearances.

 
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