Subcontracted weld testing 1

[amorton5]

Per asme IX or AWS D1.1 and D1.2 can a contractor perform the welder performance qualification test at their shop. At completion of the weld test can they send the completed test coupon off to a 3rd party for review, guided bend test and receive certification for that welder? My question is, does code allow for a 3rd party CWI to physically examine the welded coupon, perform the guided bend test, complete the wpq process and send certification for that welder back to the contractor for the welder to go to work for the contractor?

Does Asme IX or AWS D1.1 allow for this?

 

[Mr168]

The codes do not prohibit testing services being subcontracted, as is common practice for mechanical and radiographic testing in particular. However, the certification of that welder must be by the company or individual acting on behalf of the company.

 

[metengr]

Agree with Mr168. Yes, to all of the above except certification must be performed by the company representative.

 

[amorton5]

So can the 3rd party CWI fill in the ranges qualified etc on the certification and sign the bottom with the contractors name with permission? Or does the person filling in the certs information have to physically be on the companies "pay roll" for say? Just to clarify sorry guys

 

[metengr]

So can the 3rd party CWI fill in the ranges qualified etc on the certification and sign the bottom with the contractors name with permission?

Not for ASME Section IX certification.

 

[DekDee]

amorton5,

"My question is, does code allow for a 3rd party CWI to physically examine the welded coupon, perform the guided bend test, complete the wpq process and send certification for that welder back to the contractor for the welder to go to work for the contractor?"

It is fine what you have proposed as per ASME IX with certain provisos.

1 You or someone from your Organization must witness the welder/s performing the welding.
2 You or someone from your organization must sign the certificate to "certify" the welder.

Anyone can fill out a Welder Qualification Certificate (if you do not have the experience then using a CWI is fine)but you must take responsibility for this information by signing the certificate on your companies behalf.

Hope that helps,
Regards,
Shane

 

[gtaw]

Personally, I will not test anything I didn't witness.

A CWI that fills out the paperwork, without witnessing the actual test, and signs the paperwork is a "goofball" unless he has direct knowledge of who the welder was, he knows the WPS was followed, what position it was welded in, etc. The Code of Ethics basically says the CWI doesn't sign for anything he doesn't witness or doesn't have direct knowledge of.

I know of an engineer/CWI that lost his CWI and PE because he "trusted" the contractor and signed the reports. He now has a big gaping hole in his backside where his butt used to be.

Generally, other than AWS structural welding codes, the contractor/employer must certify their own welders. Based on that, I wonder how long it will be before an AWS ATF and AWS are named as defendants in a legal case for "certifying" welders for ASME code work.

Best regards - Al

 

[weldstan]

gtaw
A star for you and noting that AWS D1,1 does not require Employer certification of the welder; however, I do believe that Employers should do so in their own interest. After all a poor welder will end up costing them, potentially dearly.

 

[gtaw]

Weldstan, I can't agree more. It is better to discover the welder can't weld in the test booth than on the production floor. The cost of a repair can be very high compared to the cost of the welder qualification. That being said, some employers have a hard time grasping the idea they are legally responsible for the work produced by their employees.

One would think the insurance companies would have a vested interest in making sure the welder is properly qualified by the companies they insure. If I was an underwriter, I would make it a condition of the policy that the employer had to qualify all their employees and forget the idea of accepting previous qualification by a previous employer.

The position taken by the structural welding code, as it stands, is a flawed economic hypothesis.

Best regards - Al

 

[DekDee]

Al,
I misread the question and responses.
I got tied up on the certification part and who can/cannot insert the information and sign off.
I incorrectly presumed the visual examination of the test coupon by the CWI was after completion of welding (at the premises).
I spent many years witnessing welder qualification in companies workshops, visually inspecting the test coupons, physically taking the acceptable coupons back to the laboratory, radiographing them and then writing and signing welder qualification certificates for the acceptable welds.
I again incorrectly presumed this was a similar case,
Cheers,
Shane

 

[gtaw]

I usually witness the welder weld the test assembly, I witness the preparation of the test specimens, I perform the guided bend tests, I evaluate the guided bend tests, I complete the welder performance qualification record, and I sign the qualification record as the test witness. I leave it up to a company representative to sign the certifying statement that the test record is correct and true.

Many people get confused with the difference between qualification and certification. I, as the CWI, qualify the welder. The employer, by the act of signing the certifying statement, certifies the welder.

Best regards - Al

 

[gtaw]

I often have requests to perform only the bend tests and then complete the test report and they ask that I sign the test report as the certifying agent. That I will not do. I have no direct knowledge of who welded the coupon, what welding process was used, what WPS was used, or what position the coupon was welded in. I would be forced into believing the information provided by the client was factual. "It ain't gonna happen!" I refuse to place my reputation or credential at risk based on the statements made by a person I don't know.

Do I lose revenue? Absolutely I do, but my reputation is worth more than a few quick dollars in my pocket. My business is founded on my reputation. To a large extent my success is dependent on people trusting me. That simply the way I operate my business. Am I a good business person? Probably not in the eyes of people that think a good businessmen is only interested in revenue.

Best regards - Al

 

[GenB]

Amorton5. Yes it's allowed. As long a the third party is a certified laboratory to perform the mechanical test. I see no problem sending g back the test to the employer, the employer reviews the documents and if agree, signs certifying.

General Blr. CA,USA

 

[gtaw]

GB, I believe the post was whether it was permitted for the laboratory to perform the bend tests, complete the paperwork and certify the welder. The laboratory would be on shaky ground to certify the welder without out first hand knowledge the person listed on the test record was in fact the person that actually welded the test coupon. That would constitute fraud in some circles.

Is it done? I'm sure it is. I've encountered situations were the CWI handed the contractor a blank performance test record already signed and stamped by the CWI. To say the CWI regretted his actions is an understatement. The contractor certified everyone in the shop, even the receptionist, without one arc being struck.

Best regards - Al

 

[DekDee]

Al,
Again, I agree with you.
It does raise an issue I have experienced in the past (especially having worked in various laboratories).
As example: A contractor sends 6 x pipe coupons to a laboratory for radiography (or in your case bend tests) with coupons marked with welder ID.
An NDT request form accompanies these coupons stating all the relevant information (eg. code to be tested to, pipe OD, pipe WT, welding position, welding process, welder ID and sometimes welders full names in addition to welder ID or welder number.)
These coupons are then radiographed (or bend tested) and an NDT report then goes back to the Contractor with all the relevant information listed.
The contractor then writes up his welder qualification certificates with the NDT report as supporting documentation.

What if one welder welded all 6 x coupons (seen it before) ?
The list of "What ifs" is lengthy but it really comes back to the integrity of the contractor.
By the code giving the responsibility of qualification to the "Organisation" it does open the system up to abuse.

Not sure if it is still the case but in New Zealand and Australia, any ASME welder qualification requires a CWI witness - either in house or third party.

That is the main reason why basically all of clients I have worked for over the past 25 years have not accepted previous welder qualification certificates - you have no idea of the history behind the certificate.
Cheers,
Shane

 

[gtaw]

Exactly my point.

If a lab is willing to perform the guided bend tests or RT, they should only complete and sign the test record pertaining to the test performed. However, for exactly the reasons you state, I will not perform only the mechanical bends without witnessing the welder welding the coupons.

A CWI that signs the certifying statement without first hand knowledge of the who, what, and where is opening up a can of worms that can cost him or her their AWS credentials.

Best regards - Al

 

[amorton5]

GTAW
Let me explain the situation..... I am a CWI admittedly not the most experienced in the world. I've spent a lot of time working directly for construction contractors dealing with mostly ASME Sec I and B31.1.

Recently, a small contractor that does not keep a full time CWI on staff contacted me. Their question was "can we (contractor) witness our new welders 6G weld test, after completion, can we mail you the WPS used for testing purposes, along with the test coupon, have you examine it, remove the test specimines and perform the guided bend test" "If the test passes guided bend, can you fill in wpqr information ranges qualified etc.. and send us the wpqr filled out for that welder." ---That was their question

The contractor would like me to fill in the ranges because they are not familiar with ASME IX that is the only reason for that. Once they recieve conformation that the visual and the bends were acceptable, the contactor will then sign the wpqr on their behalf certifying the welder.

The contractor rep will witness the physical weld test, verifying 6G position, filler material, weld progression etc

All im going to be doing is reviewing the wps, examining the weld, performing the guided bend test and preparing a wpqr in the event of a successful guided bend test. Just like I would if I was on the job.... Only exception is they have to sign the wpqr to certify the welder on their companies behalf

----Can this be done?

I appologize if I missed something critical here, I have a lot more resources at my office. I'm sitting at home at mid night, I'm a little tired its been a long day

 

[amorton5]

Example-

Bottom of WPQR would read

Weld test conducted by: Contractor Represintitive
Mecanical Tests Conducted by : Myself

The contractor basicallly wants to have a CWI perform the QW-462.3, QW-462.2 and QW-302.4 parts of the welder "qualification" process. I do not believe you have to be a CWI to "certify" the welder for the company, they can do that. All they are looking for is some consulting from a CWI and some help preparing the wpqr?

Are we good to go or no?

 

[DekDee]

amorton,
You are good to go with what you propose (as per code requirements).
You do not even have to sign on the certificate.
If you prepare a visual report and a bend test report you then sign those reports and the contractor then references the report numbers on the welder qualification certificate.
Hope that helps,
Cheers,
Shane

 

[gtaw]

As a CWI you should not sign for anything you do not have direct knowledge of. I my humble opinion, that includes filling in the welder performance test report. By filling in the information you are attesting the information is correct.

"Sir, did you complete the test report?"
"Yes sir I did."
"Did you witness the test?"
"No sir, I did not."
"If you did not witness the test, how do you know who welded the coupon?"
"I have no way of knowing who welded the coupon."
"If you didn't witness the test how do you know what position it was welded in?"
"I depended on the information provided by the contractor."
"Then you have no knowledge the information is correct?"
"No, I trusted the contractor."
"Did you know that the same welder welded all four test coupons?"
"No, I wasn't present during the performance test."
"You completed the test report without independently verifying who welded the test assemblies, what position they were welded in, what filler metal was used, or what WPS was used?"
"Yes sir. I depended on the information provided by the contractor."
"You admit to participating in a fraudulent activity."
"I had no way of knowing it was fraudulent."
"So, why did you enter the information in a legal document if you didn't know the information was correct?"
"Because they paid me to do it."
"You participated in a fraudulent activity for money?"

I would not want to be the one sitting in the witness stand answering those questions. I make sure I never have to answer those questions because I witness the performance test or I do not complete the test report. Again, I do lose money and I am certain there are labs that willing accept the money and write in anything the contractor wants. I know it happens, I've seen it happen. I've seen CWIs answer to charges they violated their Code of Ethics they agree to when they accept the AWS CWI credential.

If you or your company is that hungry for money, perform the bend tests, but complete a separate bend test report that references a coupon serial number/identification. Let the contractor complete and sign the performance test report. If they can't do that, then they need to hire you do witness the test from start to finish. Qualification is a cost of doing business. If they do not have the personnel with the knowledge to do it properly, they have to hire someone that can. Save your reputation and your CWI.

I have serve as an expert witness in a number of legal cases. I was not time going after the laboratory and their inspectors. This would be a slam dunk in my client's favor.




Best regards - Al