Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea 6

[Uncanny3]

Hi,
I want to share my thought on what I have called a 'subducing head',
it's a pneumatic engine.
Here's the first drawing==>

The concept is to apply more pressure on one side of a shape within an air compression chamber.
So the red squares are areas of pressure, which don't occur on the other side of the shape,
as the steps mating(wrung) allow the backward pressure face to be culled. Their area in practice ceases to exist.
However this does mean that the feet have to move uphill, and the air pressure will jam them outward,
meaning that inclination has to be overcome.
Would this provide circular movement?
-The thing about this motor, is that requires no more force than compression, it doesn't need relief.
Here's a 3d model:-

...and the forward pressure areas of such:-

I would like to share, and get this built. Do you think it would work?
...I'd love anyone to get involved
If you'd like to help, please reply with your thoughts
-I hope this is interesting,
if you would just like to comment on why or why this doesn't work,
I'd be curious to hear
Cheers

 

[3DDave]

kjoiner - applying pressure to both sides is how gas struts work. The piston moves because the pressure on the rod area is unopposed by the outside atmosphere. Gas struts have a hole in the piston to allow material to flow from one side to the other, through an orifice to control the speed.

Still, odd to have a motor that requires another motor to drive it.

 

[Jboggs]

Uncanny3 -
"The rod is just a way to transmit the motion of the piston."
And... what causes the piston to move? The delta-P, the difference in pressures on each side. And where does that pressure difference come from? It comes from the fact that the air on one side of the piston comes from a compressor at a high pressure level. The air on the other side goes back through an open valve to exhaust to atmosphere. If that exhaust to atmosphere did not exist, there would be no delta-P, and thus no motion of the piston.

 

[Uncanny3]

I have attached better pictures of the drawings.
It has been pointed out to me that the rams do not move together, requiring a linkage.
Here is best linkage==>

3DDave: a constancy of pressure goes in, useful movement goes out, no more force is applied,
useful movement comes out in this conjecture. A sand timer falls, this has energy enough to push upwards perhaps.
It's potentially a sand timer that goes backwards.

BrianPetersen: aqua/turquoise represents a pressure of 0, white represents a pressure of 1.5,
and bright medium blue represent the rams, which have a pressure of 1.
The pressures are air pressure, not hydraulic (slightly different, as air can be compressed).

Step 3: it is a small work, using the collected energy to spin the vessel 180 degrees
Step 4,5,6,7: are now perhaps relevant, as the white area(compression chamber) has more pressure than the bright medium blue rams

Jboggs: It is conventional understanding that an air pressure cannot sustain movement without decompression or relief.
I am trying to get around that by switching surface areas that are actively receiving pressure.
Subducing or redaction are both the same concept, largely the entirety of concept.
Both mean to take away or hide a surface area from pressure using a flat to flat mating.
Proposedly, if a surface is not exposed to air pressure, it is not pushed.
Yes, I understand the rod end has less exposure to pressure, thus defeated.
This most recent idea(the dual ram) uses different surface areas though,
More surface area will defeat a lesser one, a large bore working against a smaller one.

 

[Uncanny3]

Brian Malone: I hope it's analogous to a sand timer that moves inversely,
pushing upwards, not falling. Transmission to the rotation can be pneumatically applied.
This could be done by charging a ram, the engaging switches at extant point in travel.
the best way to get energy/movement out of this thing is to use another air compression/transmission

 

[3DDave]

I had one with buoyant sand, which went up.

I do enjoy trying to figure out what part of physics perpetual motion device makers don't know and then seeing how far they will go to avoid acknowledging that part. More, when they deny they are working on a perpetual motion machine as they don't understand that the principle they are depending on, if true, would make such machines possible.

 

[Uncanny3]

3DDave:
the principle is that if mated to a fixed flat mating,
pressure is removed, allowing pressure to become immediate or not
a pressure switch

I hope it's fun thought anyway

 

[Jboggs]

"conventional understanding"?
It's not just "conventional understanding". It's an unchangeable physical principle. There is no "way around it". If that is really what you're trying to do, you're wasting your time.

A suggestion - help us all understand your concept a little better by highlighting the pressurized areas. ALL pressurized areas.

If your concept is based on the premise that equal pressures on unequal areas produce unequal forces, you are right. In cases like that, the devil is in the details. Details like friction, leaky seals, etc. Or physical details like how to create an object that has a different total exposed area depending on your viewpoint.

 

[Uncanny3]

this does have the have the relative pressures delineated,
however I'm having a hell of a time making 2 pistons move equally

so forget one, and let a bind work perhaps,
I am struggling to make 2 pistons work at once together

the premise is that unequal areas will move equal pressures

 

[3DDave]

Do you mean the (0), (1), and (1.5)? Are those the relative pressures?

What are the squiggles supposed to represent?

 

[zeusfaber]

The principle is that if mated to a fixed flat mating, pressure is removed, allowing pressure to become immediate or not

This explains why, when you place an A4 sheet of paper flat on the desk, it exerts a force of over 6kN on the desk and why, if you put more than two sheets of paper on your desk at the same time, the desk usually collapses.

A.

 

[kjoiner]

@3DDave
"kjoiner - applying pressure to both sides is how gas struts work. The piston moves because the pressure on the rod area is unopposed by the outside atmosphere. Gas struts have a hole in the piston to allow material to flow from one side to the other, through an orifice to control the speed.
Still, odd to have a motor that requires another motor to drive it."


Exactly. The hole in the piston allows for a damping action so the gas spring does not extend rapidly. I think what Uncanny is missing is that something like a gas spring requires an outside force like an SUV hatchback being closed to compress it. It won't compress by itself. A pneumatic cylinder requires compressed air to cause the piston to move. To create motion, the air would need to be alternately routed through either port. If both ports are pressurized, the piston will reach a state of equilibrium and stop moving.

The subducing ram requires something to flip it over.

 

[3DDave]

If both ports are equally pressurized that equilibrium is a fully extended cylinder with the piston stopped at the end of the cylinder.

 

[BrianPetersen]

... and the force the raised hatch is applying externally to compress the piston rod, plus the force the piston is applying against its internal stop, balances internal pressure X rod area.

 

[Uncanny3]

3DDave: yes- 0, 1 & 1.5 are the relative pressures
The squiggles are air lines

zeusfaber: a piece of paper inside a compression chamber, against a fixed flat,
would transmit the exposed face's pressure to the hidden one I think

kjoiner: Flipping it is possible, I can charge a ram with the upward movement,
and engage a switch at a point in travel to spin it.
Then disengage the charged ram for inverse

I think hiding the faces may be a little impossible,
the rams will always be driven back by the 1.5 pressure against their 1.
Also making them move in absolute unison seems nigh impossible also

 

[3DDave]

If there is enough force to lift it there is enough force to keep it there when flipped. There needs to be a sequencing valve to change the pressures.

 

[Uncanny3]

3D Dave: yes agreed, the idea would be to charge a ram(inside the chamber) that transmits
it's force to one outside the chamber(that spins it), and engage/disengage that outside one with switch valves,
which could be done with the travel, or manually to begin with

 

[BrianPetersen]

So, you are now granting that there is going to be high-pressure fluid flow IN together with low-pressure fluid flow OUT?

Or is there still a black hole inside that is somehow gathering up and collecting all the inbound mass flow rate so that it never escapes, the black hole just keeps getting heavier and heavier as mass flow enters and never escapes?

 

[Uncanny3]

BrianPetersen:
It's pneumatic, not hydraulic
there is no usual exhaust,
a compressed air out(which is problematic to apply in a ram actually(it will not extend again)),
would be the work it theoretically does

It does not gather liquid mass. it is under a constant air pressure,
this concept. The rams and chamber are pressurized with air once,
to begin with. Then movement is enabled by hiding the 2 light green surfaces from
the higher pressure chamber. The hidden surfaces can switch pressures,
one higher than the other. The chamber has a higher air pressure than
the pistons/rams which push the triangles.

JBoggs: that concept "the premise that equal pressures on unequal areas produce unequal forces"
is the thrust of this contention(the whole thought experiment, and some failed real world ones also).
Since I too know that to be the case, can this principle be used to generate movement without relief,
by switching shapes or pressure zones/areas under pressure? How can switching surface areas be applied?

 

[3DDave]

See - it's a perpetual motion machine.

 

[Uncanny3]

...in my dreams
thanks for being a sounding board,
if such efficient mechanisms are not discussed here,
thanks for the conceptual exercise

The subject can be pneumatic surface redaction theory,
not hand waving perpetual motion machine if you would
like to continue.

I need to prepare a paper and the 3d model,
I'm hoping that a school in the US wants to pick it up.
Air is largely safe and this could be educational.
It's not chemical or nuclear energy after all,
trying it will not hurt

I guess I do wonder how to get energy out of it then