Survey - Is a flagpole a structure? 1

[breaks]

There's been a big controversy in my area concerning a resident of a gated, private community placing a flagpole in his yard. The flagpole is 25-30 feet tall and is in violation of the community's bylaws (or something like that).

A few "engineers" have apparently written to the paper (I've heard about this through friends) supporting the resident and saying that the flagpole is not a "structure". I disagree - I mean, at the very least, wind loads must be taken into account when determining the pole size and baseplate configuration. No one would contract a huge engineering firm to design the thing, but somebody has to make some considerations before plopping the pole in the ground!

I was just interested to see what others thought - structure or not a structure?

 

[Ginger]

Structure

It is a wind loaded cantilever, the same as a lamp post (which I suspect has been designed by the County's structural department). Andy Machon

 

[JAE]

The glass on your window takes wind loads and resists them through flexural and shear stresses.....but that doesn't make them a "structure". It depends upon what the interpretation of structure was with the development of the zoning ordinance or code.

So just because an entity takes loads and even requires calculations for design, doesn't necessarily mean it is in violation of the communities bylaws or falls under its intent of the word "strucure".

I would think that this requires an interpretation, unfortuneately by a judge.

 

[breaks]

JAE, good point. I was simply told by some friends that a few engineers had written in to the paper saying that a flagpole is not a structure. The context wasn't included in their (my friend's) comment and it may have had something to do with the zoning definition of a structure. But they asked me what I thought and I told them that I thought those guys were nuts. Is a radio tower a structure? Sure it is!

Anyway, zoning ordinances and laws aside - what's your initial gut answer?

 

[whymrg]

The Flagpole Division of The National Association of Architectural Metal Manufacturers (NAAMM) published "Guide Specification for Design Loads of Metal Flagpoles" ANSI/NAAMM FP 1001-90.

You may also try

http://www.flagpoles.com.

They should know all regulations.

 

[JAE]

Well....I don't want to sound wishy washy...but

1. It is a structure in that it is a substantial element in this guy's front yard and affects the aesthetics of his property. In our neighborhoods, we have covenants that homebuyers have to sign before buying a house. These covenants have all sorts of requirements such as dis-allowing stand-alone storage buildings, cars stored on jacks, boats or trailers in driveways, etc. All of which are intended to help the entire neighborhood maintain its value.

If a big flagpole lowers the value, or desireability of the neighbor's homes, and their covenants dictate that he can't do it, then they've got a point.

On the other hand.....

2. My own personal sense of independance and liberty relative to governmental constraints points me in the direction that, unless perfectly and clearly denied in the neighborhood covenant or zoning laws, a flagpole isn't a structure (i.e. an occupancy). Therefore, leave the guy alone!

Keep in mind that many humans who are not engineers use the term "structure" as a term for a inhabitable building, not in the pure sense that we engineers see it. I would guess that the writers of the zoning laws here didn't have a flagpole in mind.

 

[Ron]

JAE...to disagree slightly with one of your premises...a structure does not necessarily imply occupancy.

If attached to a building, a flagpole would likely just be an appurtenance. If standing along, it would likely be a structure, as it must be self sustaining under the load conditions. It would be comparable to a monopole communications tower or the like, or as Andy mentioned, a lamp post. I agree that it most likely needs an interpretation or legal ruling in the context of local code or ordinance.

As for the engineers who rendered an opinion for the media...most state laws frown upon engineers making public statements about items for which they do not have adequate evidence or engineering foundation. Hopefully they know appropriate background on this subject and have not just spoken to hear themselves speak.

 

[dik]

Firstly, from an engineering sense, a flagpole is a structure. From a legal sense, however, it is not necessarily one. Having said that, it's a matter of checking with the local building code and determininig what definition they have for structures or what the scope is. If it is not included, ie., it is excluded, then it is not considered to be a structure .

In the Ontario Building Code, the code is applicable to: All buildings occupying an area greater than 10 sq. metres, except for farm buildings... flagpoles are excluded as are most landscaping items, including retaining walls (with certain limitations).

The definitions in your jurisdiction may vary; check the code and deterimine if it is applicable, if not, then do not consider it a structure. If there is an argument, then have your local building inspector send you a letter 'walking you through the code' explaining why it is or, alternatively, drop him a note using the code references, stating why it is not.


Ron:
It's not a matter of being 'right or wrong', good or bad', true or false'; it's a matter of being 'legal or illegal'... <G> Used to be that these were more convergent, it seems...


JAE:
&quot;If a big flagpole lowers the value, or desireability of the neighbor's homes, and their covenants dictate that he can't do it, then they've got a point&quot;

I would suspect that unless it's written into whatever covenents or caveats there are, it would be difficult (flag waving mode) to prevent this unless the flagpole was way out of scale. Likely, it would be easy enough to find a couple of scrupulous real estate agents to state that the flag pole improved
the property... As the owner, I would likely retain an architect or landscape architect to undertake the commission... (expert in building aesthetics).

 

[evelrod]

One more arguement---

Sedona, AZ., 1993(+/-), Flagpole and very large U.S. Flag found illegal on grounds that it was an advertisement for a business. (Business[selling patroitic items] and residence belonged to a decorated Viet Nam veteran.)
Question: Is this flagpole now a structure (billboard)?


Rod

 

[Rich2001]

This brings up an interesting problem. Is flying the flag a form of speech. If so, then it is a 1st Amendment question. Contact the FREEDOM FORUM at

http://www.freedomforum.org

see what they have to say.

However, my personnal believe is it is a structure.

One must ask the question, &quot;Does the possibility of damage to person or property if the flagpole were to fail?&quot;

 

He needs to find out what real authority the community has over his property, or what did he sign on moving there? Who cares if it is a structure or not if all it's going to do is piss off the neighbors.

 

[breaks]

Thanks for all the input!

 

[jk]

There is no question as to how the building code covers flagpoles. ASCE 7 breaks down structures to &quot;building&quot; and &quot;non-building&quot; structures, which appears to be the real basis for the argument. It seems to me that, as usual, someone is trying to pull a fast one out of their ignorance.

The latest Building Codes (looking at my IBC)

1. Identifies Structure as &quot;that which is built or constructed&quot; (IBC Chapt. 2)

2. AS far as steel is conrerned, it specifically governs &quot;the quality, design fabrication and erection of steel used structurally in buildings or structures.&quot; (IBC Section 22)

I don't think that your friend has a leg to stand on.

 

[dik]

JK:

What jurisdiction uses the IBC? and does my bookcase qualify as a structure?... afterall, I built it.

Is there some other definition within the IBC Code?

 

[JAE]

On page 21 of the IBC 2000, in the Definitions section 202, the word &quot;structure&quot; is defined as &quot;That which is built or constructed&quot;. I guess that means an anthill is a structure.

What Breaks originally indicated was the owner had violated some ordinance dictated by either the city, neighborhood association, or other governing authority. This, to me, doesn't sound like a &quot;building code&quot; issue, but requires the &quot;governing authority&quot; to look to the original zoning ordinance that raised all the hubbubb in the first place.

If the ordinance clearly defines its terms, or ties them to the building code, then maybe yes, the flagpole is a structure. However, if the ordinance uses the term &quot;structure&quot; but doesn't carefully define it, then (in my opinion) its a vague and bad law and whoever wrote it should be hung from ankles by the flagpole of the owner.

Vague laws bring on all kinds of lawsuits and we all know who benefits from lawsuits.

Any guess on who wrote the ordinance in the first place?

 

[idl]

If you ask a Structural Engineer, a flag pole IS a structure, as
(a) it resists applied (wind) loads by transfering them to the point(-s) of support and
(b) by doing that, it does not move. (If it did, it would be a mechanism.)
If you ask a Lawyer, you may get a different answer, but, please, don't let him/her design one!!!
If the local Zoning by-law does not specifically refer to flagpoles and yet prohibits construction of new &quot;structures&quot; on the premises, our friend is definetely out of luck.

 

[dik]

idl:
I would disagree... if the local zoning bylaw does not specifically include this as part of the definition then he is likely OK.

It's a matter of rendering the 30 pieces of silver unto Caesar. As I noted to Ron, it's not whether you're correct or incorrect, but it's legal or illegal... Under law, things don't have to be logical...

 

[obzpae]

We consider a flagpole a structure under our zoning code however it is obviously not an occupiable structure such as a deck, etc. An interesting side note, a deck( even on grade) is a regulated structure under our zoning code however a patio is not! Always wondered about that?

John

 

[idl]

A flagpole is a structure, a lawyer is a lawyer and ignorance is bliss.
People, we are wasting time.