Switching Jobs 6

[ysm]

I work in a small company and have aspirations to work for larger companies and exploit my higher education.
Our clients are big aerospace companies. I am the technical lead in my company. I interact with the Clients' engineers from the beginning of the project to the end. They have been so far very pleased with my work.
Would it be unethical of me to send them a personal email saying I am looking for a position in their company.


Thanks
YSM

 

[MacGyverS2000]

If taking such a position would unduly influence their relationship with your current employer, then yes, it would be unethical. If, as is the more likely case, you are simply looking for a new position and are worried about leaving your current employer in a lurch without a technical lead, then no, I would not consider that unethical.. I would consider it doing what's right for your career.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Ron]

No. Happens all the time. Glad you asked the question...it shows your integrity; however, you are an individual engineer with aspirations to move forward. If you told your present company what you intend, they would probably fire you.

McGiverS2000 put it very nicely!

 

[apsix]

And don't worry about the effect on the relationship between the two companies, it's not your problem, unless the enquiry backfires on you.

It may be better to make some discrete enquiries verbally rather than by email.

 

[weeeds]

Absolutely this action is unethical. Unfortunately too many employees believe that everything they know they acquired on their own and their employer made no contribution to their carrer. Employers are not given credit for taking tremendous risks in hiring employees. Due to this declining level of professionalism our company now hires based on strength of character as opposed to specific knowledge. A person with a strong character can learn the job and be a positive contributor to the company while a skilled employee with a weak character can destroy the chemistry of a company, especially a small business. For the sake of your current employer I hope that you leave so that hopefully they replace you with someone who better understands and respects their employer. It is also possible that you are not the type of individual who can work in a small business where every employee is critical to the success of the business. Its best for both you and your current employer that you move on as soon as possible.

 

[rbulsara]

Unethical only from the point of view that you are reaching out to an active client and undermines your current employer. I will not be unethical if you were to apply for an advertised position in that company though.

As for weeds' position,I do not think you are bad employee as weeds suggests. What he describes is the employer's problem not yours. While it is true that employer has some contribution but seeking out other employment for your betterment is not unethical. Keeping their employees happy is employer's responsibility. In free market, especially in the USA, where most employment is at will (of both sides), I really do not have any sympathy for weak employers or employees.




Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[ysm]

Thanks all for your input.
Weeeds, I do understand your point but what is the obligation of the employee. Is he supposed to stay with a company for ever? The company did invest in training the employee but on the employee's part he too must have helped the company grow and create good-will among its clients.
Don't these two things balance out?

Thanks
YSM

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I completely disagree with you, weeds...

You are paid to do a job, hopefully within your field of expertise. If you manage to learn something new during your tenure as an employee, kudos to you... but that newly learned skill in no way should make you beholden to the employer. They benefit by your experience while you're there. I wouldn't hire a greenie, no matter how strong his character may be, if I needed a specific area of knowledge in that employee... and as such, I'm going to pay a premium to find someone with that particular skillset.

Sounds like a very short-sighted hiring process, and if everyone thought the way you're claiming to do, there would never be any marketable talent out there because they would all stay with one company...


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[MiketheEngineer]

How do most new companies get started?? Someone working in one company went out and started his own - for whatever reason. Did he take some of the on the job training - sure - but thought he could do it better. Some failed.

Iococa worked for Ford - then rebuilt Chrysler. Almost the same for all the early car mfgs.

I think Westinghouse started with Edison. I don't ever remember hearing of the Edison Light bulb company. I think he either sold it or someone took the idea and ran with it.

Many industries were spawned by those who worked for Alexander Bell.

Glenn Curtis and all the early airplane mfgs either worked for the Wright Brothers or outright stole their ideas.

Be proessional as stated. Do NOT steal customer lists, plans, patents, etc. But if you feel you can do it better - good luck.

Matter of Point. Most non-compete clauses barely hold up in court. By the time the lawyers are hired, suits filed, discovery taken, etc - the time limit has run out and they become a moot point.

 

[patprimmer]

If an employer expects his employees to repay knowledge gained by never resigning he should also be prepared to offer a life long contract at competitive salary and conditions.

It is not unethical to apply for an advertised position.

It is unethical to suggest to a current client that they could cut out your current employer by employing you directly, especially if the only reason you are uniquely qualified is because of very specific on the job learning.

If employers are investing a lot of sensitive IP in a particular employee, in my often not humble enough opinion, they would be very well advised to do it only when tied to a contract with guaranteed time limited employment and specified non compete clauses.

ie 5 year contract and non compete for contract period with existing or previous customers during contract period and some named companies.

This also depends on non compete/restriction of employment laws in your regime.

Regards
Pat
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[RacingAZ]

The way you described it is unethical and I agree with what rbulsara stated. It should be an "arm's length" transaction.

If you're going to do what you've just said and you happen to work for the government and the private company is a gov. contractor, it is not just unethical but also illegal.

Again, following what rbulsara said, there is a right and wrong way of doing it.

 

[btrueblood]

I had pretty much the reverse of the OP's situation happen multiple times, i.e. offers from supplier companies that I was working with. I never took up on these, as it would have been difficult for me to move at the time, and I enjoyed where I was. As time went on...

"I work in a small company and have aspirations to work for larger companies and exploit my higher education"

... it became clear to me that being an engineer for a small company meant that more of my higher (and lower) education could be utilized by the smaller companies, and it was going to be more likely that I would end up pigeon-holed in the larger corporations. So began a series of jobs at progressively smaller companies.

 

[frv]

I join the rest in my disagreement with weeds..

I love what I do and the company I work for. I even feel loyalty toward my company, despite having been laid off by them previously.

However, if a client comes up to me and offers me a significant amount of money more than what I am making to go to another company, am I supposed to say no?

A company will look after their bottom line, and so should you. I love my job, but it is not my life. It is what allows me to do what I want with my family. I am fortunate in that I enjoy my job.

Provided, you don't do some of the things mentioned above, I think you are well within your rights to pursue this opportunity and make your situation better.

 

[IRstuff]

A job is a straight quid pro quo transaction, i.e., they get something from you, and you get something from them. If there is an imbalance, then there would be other stipulations on the job, like a clause that requires you to work one full year in exchange for moving expense considerations. Given that it's otherwise an at-will employment, terminated at will by either party at any time, then there is no further obligation, other than good will.

TTFN

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[controlnovice]

Just be careful about "No-Steal" policies between the companies. If the policy exists, your current company may claim the new company 'stole' it's employee...then you are out of work.

Happened with a vendor of ours. Quit. Went to work for customer. Old company pulled out the 'no-steal' policy. Guy was out of work.

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

 

[TDAA]

Note he said: ". . . saying I am looking for a position in their company."

Not: "I want to do the work my company does, but do it for you and cut them out."

Nothing wrong with the first statement, since it could imply that he wants to be part of the larger picture, and do more things with the overall project, that he could only do by working at one of the clients businesses.

The second one is where it seems some of you assume he wants to go. That would be unethical.

Now, if he was hired on in situation one, and his new employer decides that they now have the talent to do work X in-house and they cut the former company out of the loop. Well, that is business.

 

[HgTX]

I wouldn't do it in an email, though. I'd mention it in person, as casually as you can. No sense in generating a paper trail of "disloyalty".

Hg

p.s. And it should go without saying that if you want to send them an email, you don't do it from your work account, but I'll say it anyway.

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[moon161]

Really, just go through the front door, HR, website, etc. If you ask someone, they might take it differently than you think and mention it to your boss.

 

[jmw]

moon161 says it best.
I would be uncomfortable with using any other channel than the advertised positions or sending a resume to the HR department on spec.

That is what anyone does who is looking for a job.

You don't need to use your employers contact list (i.e. your official contacts with the company) this way.

Your resume will reveal who you currently work for and once HR know you work for a supplier, they should get comments from the people you are usually in contact with without you putting your contacts in a potentially embarrassing position.

Suppose their are no jobs and you can't get one elsewhere but they now know you are looking to move? They might assume you will move and if you are critical enough to your employer's operations they may decide that future contracts might be at risk and place contracts elsewhere...
OK, its an outside risk but you need to anticipate possible downsides as well as ups.

Also, if you approach your contacts within the company you risk putting them in a difficult position and souring future relationships.... unless you know them very well.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[KENAT]

jmw, what have you been smoking?

HR are looking for any reason to put your resume in the round file cabinet, they are to be avoided in lieu of likely candidates or managers.

Rarely are they going to be diligent enough to get far enough through a resume, or know enough about the actual business part of the business, to realize you work for a supplier.

While it's never actually worked for me, the perceived wisdom of it being "not what you know but who you know" seems to hold in many cases.

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