Tail plane design

[kennyC]

Aircraft A is built as it usually would be. However, it then has to be housed in a low hanger and the vertical tail pushes its height over the height of the hanger. Could engineers remove a section of the tail and re-position it under the rear fuselage or would this severely affect the planes stability? If the vertical tail could be changed like this, would any other parts of the plane have to be modified to compensate?

Thanks in advance

K.Clapham

 

[i278]

Tie it down outside.

Jack up the nose.

Build a new hangar.

Playing musical chairs with the tail components may indeed be possible. It would likely propagate into reworking everything aft of the cabin. Whether it's a workable mod is impossible to say--especially in a general case. Personally, I'd put 'change the tail' on the list way below 'buy a smaller airplane'.

But I'm just being negative.

Regards

 

[i278]

Alright, I've my morning coffee and, after reviewing my previous post, I'd like to give a more reasonable response. (I was originally somehow under the impression that this was a T-tail and you were dropping the horizontal and some of the vertical tail below the fuselage. I panicked.)

My reconsidered reply: this may not be such a bad mod after all. Still, though, any sort of general answer is impossible. It depends on the plane's configuration and, to some extent, the magnitude of the change. Would you need to relocate 10% of the tail? Or two thirds?

What kind of plane are we talking about when this mod is an option? Of course, if this is a type-certified aircraft it'd be much cheaper to just get started on that new hangar.

Regards

 

[kennyC]

The whole situation is hypothetical because the situation never (and prob. never will) exist. The plane i was thinking of was a W.W.2 Me 262. It had a normal tail design, not a T-tail. Was thinking of re-locating about half the vertical tail.

Even if your initial response was made pre- caffeine, it was pretty funny

 

[i278]

Me 262? Have you been spending to much time at the Stormbirds website? (

http://www.stormbirds.com)

Messing with the lines of such a pretty airplane--now I'm even more opposed than when I was asleep!

Regards

 

[jetmaker]

A better idea that does not alter the lines of this nice plane would be to modify the vertical with a local hinge point to make a folding vertical stab. This modification would likely require extensive reinforcement of the vertical stab structure, add coniderable weight, alter the a/c CofG, change handling characteristics, and require a re-certification to meet local requirements.

Anything is possible, the real question is whether it is practical. Look at a new hanger... cause if you can afford to buy and fly this aircraft, you can certainly afford a new hanger.

Have fun.

 

[davidjh]

I've seen more than one instance where "special built" "porches"/"screen rooms"/U-name-it were added onto a hanger to accomodate the empennage. Their construction was such as to permit them to be moved fairly easily.

 

[kennyC]

hey! i did say it was hypothetical!

 

[jetmaker]

Miper,

The Constallation with it's 3 vertical stabs was built to accomodate existing hangers.

 

[RobWard]

As a casual observer who knows little about aircraft may I just say that I would have thought that anything protruding too far below the tail is in danger of damage in the event of a high nose-up attitude take off or landing.

"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go past." Douglas Adams

 

[Wittenborn]

Hello!

Something that has yet to be mentioned in this discussion is the loss of one of the most important control surfaces in a twin-engine (wing-mounted) airplane: The Rudder!

As a twin engine pilot (and aero engineer), I would not recommend removing, or moving for that matter, ANY portion of the rudder! We pilots always want a bigger rudder, no matter what size it is already.

If you argue that you could add rudder to a lower portion of the vertical tail, don't forget about high angle of attack situations. I haven't studied the 262 much, but the flow past that horizontal tail in high alpha (angle of attack) might play a factor in rudder authority in stall conditions. Then add a sideslip condition to your high alpha, and...

In aerobatic airplanes, spin recovery is also an issue, including recovery from inverted spins!

You'll probably have much larger problems if you spin a 262 (flameout for one), but this is something to remember when you compare clipping the vertical tail to building a new hangar!

I have just FINISHED my morning coffee, and happen to agree with i278's first musical chairs comments!

I might suggest cutting a groove in the top of your hangar.


Regards,
Grant Wittenborn
Aerospace Engineer

http://www.darcorp.com

 

[rikman]

Hi All,

Way back in the mists of time when the Short Belfast (beautiful big transport a/c for the RAF) was being made, the door of the assembly building was too low to get the tail structure through so i278's idea was used - they rolled most of the fuselage out through the door and then jacked up the nose to lower the tail enough to get it through.

Just goes to show that a good idea never dies.

Rikman

If Beethoven had been killed in a plane crash at the age of 22, it would have changed the history of music...
and of aviation.

 

[thomas146]

Here is an idea that lets you keep the hangar and plane intact:
Create a rolling platform with supports for the fueselage and engines such as those on a boat trailer.. There are gaps in it so that the whgeels can roll the plane onto it. The plat form is then jacked up till it lifts the plane off the ground, the gear is retracted, and then the platfrom is lowered to the ground and the platform is rolled in. This could also make maintenance easier, as the plane can be lowered and raised as needed.

Thomas Schneider

 

[jcai]

GOOD MORNING FOLKS - AM STUNNED AT THE THOUGHT OF MODIFYING SUCH A RARE WARBIRD AS A WW II ME 262 ! AMAZING THAT NO ONE HAS COMMENTED ON THAT ISSUE - VANDALISM COMES TO MIND - AS AN OLD AIRPLANE A+P I AM HORRIFIED .
BUDDY - YOU OUGHT TO CONSIDER THAT YOU ARE IN POSSESSION OF A PART OF AVIATION HISTORY WHICH HOPEFULLY WILL BE PASSED ON IN GOOD AIRWORTHY CONDITION TO THE NEXT PROUD OWNER . NOTHING IS FOREVER !
IF YOU WANT TO FIT THAT BEAUTIFUL HISTORIC AIRPLANE INTO AN EXISTING HANGAR WITH OUT HANGAR RASH -THE ANSWER MAY BE A LEKTRO TOWBARLESS AIRCRAFT HANDLING VEHICLE - THIS DOES NOT USE TOWBAR AND WILL PICK UP THE NOSE GEAR - THEREFORE JACKING UP THE NOSE AND DROPPING THE TAIL ASSY. - WE HAVE USED ONE RECENTLY TO FIT CIT VII INTO CIT II HANGAR .
TRY

http://www.lektro.com

- OR WE CAN QUOTE .
HI TO RIKER -I SERVED MY APPRENTISHIP IN SHORTS BELFAST -1952 TO 1957 - SO BEFORE THE BELFAST AIRCRAFT WAS BUILT - MOSTLY ON SUNDERLANDS ETC. .

ALL THE BEST - J.C.

 

[kennyC]

I never said i owned one!!!! if i did theres no way i would cut it up! Was thinking about whats known (in some places) as "padded Cell `46, where people think about what would have happened if the war hadnt ended when it did. As the 262 spent more time as an operational aircraft, designers would have thought about ways to improve it. A lower aircraft will fit in a lower hanger, which will create less of a shadow on the ground so airfields would be harder to detect from aerial reconnaissance (sp?) pictures. That was one of the points i was pushing for.

If it mkaes you feel better, i agree with ur comments about hacking up old planes

Best wishes

 

[DORD2002]

Kenny,

What in the world is so significant about the ME 262 as to ask a question like modifying it's tail? Why not pick on an airplane with an "actual" tall-tail issue, especially since you don't own an Me 262? Let's cross the bridge when we get to it, shall we?

 

[kennyC]

well...excuse me for having an imagination!!!!

 

[kennyC]

wait a sec..... ur right. i don`t own a 262. I probably never will. But i build model kits of them and other planes. And i want to do something a little bit different.
On one of my 262 kits, i took out the cockpit, faired over the fuselage hole, lengthened the nose and painted it as a guided missile. If messing with the lines of the `262 bothers you, i hope that stops you sleeping!!!!

 

[rikman]

So much for the cut and thrust of theoretical debate then!!

Rikman

If Beethoven had been killed in a plane crash at the age of 22, it would have changed the history of music...
and of aviation.