Take me back to the good ol days! 14

[kevinsherlock]

I distinctly remember about 20 years or so ago when I was charged with the prestigious task of being lead plumbing engineer on a high profile project in Washington DC. I worked here in Richmond, so it just made it all the more exciting. The architect was outstanding. Before he gave us the backgrounds to work from, he was probably 90% complete with his design. I don’t even remember needing to ask for chases to conceal piping – they were already there. That project went out on time, complete and coordinated. Every line within our preprinted mylar borders was drawn by hand, in ink. My firm made a bundle of money and I got a nice Christmas bonus. This is the ghost of engineering past.

So fresh in the present is the project I am currently struggling to submit tomorrow. It actually causes a bad taste in my mouth. A very nice higher education building with a prominent architect. Big name architect too. We were asked to provide an ample design development package that was virtually complete. They wanted to make a good impression and establish a firm price. Promises were made that the design was firm. Sadly, the firmness apparently only applied to the exterior walls. Almost every fixture in the building has had multiple locations for me to plumb. During the course of developing the plumbing documents we encountered value engineering changes, cost estimate triggered changes, floating ubiquitous roof drains. Every time we were provided new electronic backgrounds, I quaked in my shoes. I watched this fine project with a generous fee turn into an ugly money gouging monster. Tomorrow is near and I just learned from yet another update, the public toilets shifted and no longer line up through the building. Does this have to be the ghost of engineering present? Is there a way choke someone electronically over the web?

Frankly, I am getting more and more salty toward the idea an architect has the ability to alter my personal life. Changes like this the day before the deadline is inconsiderate, unprofessional and now, down right insulting. I’m insulted by the fact he cares so little about my time. Back in the day, an architect magically got it right the very first time. He got right the first time because he knew he had to manually erase and redraw the work. Changes were still necessary, but their timing was manageable. How can we impress upon the new age architects who design by mouse and keyboard the magnitude of the last minute changes? I think we should force them to hand draw the work. Make them think harder up front. Stop with the fool hardy “eyewash” they impose on us. Demand he finish before we do. Do not engineer a fartskin until he’s over 50% complete. We as a group force should join together and brow beat the architectural community to stop the madness. Let’s rearrange the construction document process such that the ghost of engineering future makes the industry fun again.

 

[KENAT]

Even in the 3D world where models/drawings/assemblies etc are to greater or lesser extents associative, last minute changes still cause problems and most managers seem to underestimate how much.

Another * for another rant.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[BillBirch]

11echo,
I often work as a piping engineer and I must say that 3D models are a blessing for piping. You must admil that many in other disciplines cannot decipher piping drawings. Quite often clients send operations reps for design reviews and they love the walk-throughs compared to trying to read piping drawings.

GMcD,
I agree with you on the fundamentals of drafting. Recently I had to explain to, what I believed to be a fairly experienced draftsman,the fundamental principle that you should leave out one string dimension if you are including an overall dimension.

Regards,
Bill

 

[KENAT]

Bill, that came up the other day, ASME Y14.5-1994 section 1.7.7, if you work to ASME standards.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[PEDARRIN2]

We do a lot of "design by addendum" which means we are still designing after the job has gone out. I have been told to pace my design efforts so that I have only used at most 80% of the design hours by the time the job goes out, just so I don't bust the budget due to the inevitable late design changes. I hate doing that but when the architect is not done or the construction manager wants an impossible schedule, we see little choice.

I agree that we should stick to our guns and "require" the architect to be done before we are, but with tight fees and stuff like that, it is difficult to raise the stink and hold firm. With the architect and/or construction manager acting more as an extension of the owner rather than as a team mate, it puts the engineer in a difficult position.

He typically works for the architect who works for the owner so he doesn't have much say about how the architect runs the show.

 

[tralala]

People changing desings a couple of day before deliver is also normal in my area (automation). What we so is simply to set a deadline for the acceptance of the mechanical design. That date is set according to how much time we need to develop the machine WITHOUT any changes from the customer. Is the change is done with time, we do it inmediately.... BUT if the change is done after or very near the deadline so that our design time extends beyond the deadline, when for example the change is done 2 days before deadline, but it'll take 2 weeks to do it, we just move the delivery date foward... delaying the delivery. If the customer ist not willing to have a delay, then he has to stay with the original design. So simple can it be.

If besides delivery delay, if the change cost us money, we just raise the price of the machine. Of course if the change cost just a small amount its done for free, but change of over 1000 dolars, have to be paid for.

Luckily I'm in a branch where you can do this without pissing the customers off. We are one on the few companies in the world that build this type of autmation machine....

 

[11echo]

BillBirch ...I have to ask, how much value do you put into what your Reps have to say, when they can't "read" tech. piping drawing and need a "picture" to "see" things!?? That IS the big selling point of 3D ...and is a symptom of what I first posted ...lack of "truly qualified" people that are now present in the industry. 3D drawings are NOT used in construction (piping) …we still issue the same old plans, sections, & details …dimensioned the same old way. What is lacking is the knowledge of the people doing the job, plus the “addiction” to computer programs. This is where computer jockeys “think” the program can make up for their lack knowledge. I’m making an attempt to post two jpegs files, these are of a single detail that appeared on one of our drawings. The first one was generated by a 3D program; the second was generated by myself with just a standard AutoCAD program. Look them over and see which one the contractor would have the least problems with (note there are minor differences between them).
3D programs (along with other drafting programs) are nothing more then a pencil, paper, and an eraser! If you rely on them to do your thinking, then you get only what’s put into it. I’m sure this may vary in the different disciplines …but in general it’s a universal problem.

 

[PEDARRIN2]

I have to disagree that 3D drawings not being used in construction.

We just delivered a design where the contractors are being required to have software that can look at our Revit Model in 3d. They are being required to have it for coordination, conflict resolution, and as builts.

It is the first project where that has been required, but I doubt it will be the last.

 

[11echo]

PEDARRIN2 ...This is in a Piping discipline?

 

[aardvarkdw]

I have to insert my 2cents from the draftsman's point of view.

I had the good fortune to receive my design drafting degree from a school that places a high value on learning the "basics" first. We learned how to draft on a board before we ever produced a drawing in ACAD or 3D CAD program. This taught us not only the need for good technique but also the whys of producing a good drawing.

The same department cuts that 11echo mentioned took not only the experienced engineers but also the experienced draftsmen that essentially did the layout work for those engineers. Now engineers are expected to not only design but also to layout and dimension but they are not given the training in school to do these tasks. They are instead given CAD programs that they are told will "automate" these tasks for them and given 1 semester of practice. In my opinion there is no substitute for quality education. You wouldn't hire the architect to install your plumbing or electrical would you? No, you would hire an electrician or plumbing contractor. You can't expect someone to do the job right just because they know what the finished product SHOULD look like.

Rant ended...

David

 

[KENAT]

Oh the joy of ranting about drawings/product definition. * Aardvarkdw.

"1 Semester" I was short changed then, I only got about a 1/3 of a semester, something like 3-5 labs.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[BillBirch]

11echo,
Fundamentally I agree with what you say. Indeed, you must generate plans, sections and isos to fabricate and install. The only point that I will labour is the benefit of a model. The client reps I refer to have been production people (senior operators, superindendants) within the client companies who have been assigned to support the project by reviewing operability, maintainability etc. These guys do not claim to be qualified engineers - they have accumulated hands-on operations experience and are more at home with P&IDs. Importantly, these guys often sign off on the construction, so it is useful that they understand the details during design, rather than arguing after construction with you claiming "but you approved the drawings".

 

[GregLocock]

I disagree with the idea that if you can't read a 2D drawing then you shouldn't be involved in the technicalities - if I might generalise it.

We work in 3d entirely, and every Friday everybody's latest work is tesselated up and dumped into a 3d visualisation program, that pretty much anybody can drive to some level.

This means the designs get subjected to 'many eyes' reviews, in fact that visualisation program has become an essential tool when reporting problems with the design, if you click on a part you can (I think I don't do this) generate a problem.

It can also do clearance checks, assembly ops etc etc. It has the great advantage that the guy designing the assembly line, who doesn't know what a carbon canister is, can still easily visualise how it gets fitted into the car, and can check the ergonomics of that operation.



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[PEDARRIN2]

The project is a courthouse.

All interior disciplines (A, S, and MEP) did the project in Revit. The contractors are going to be required to have Navisworks which allows them to take our model and view it in 3D.

They cannot make any changes to our model but are able to "walk" through it and see above ceilings, floors, etc. They can run interference checks to see where conflicts are at.

The idea is this will put all parties ahead in the field coordination effort.

 

[jut07]

A little background on myself before my rant. I had 1/2 semester in college over drafting fundamentals and CAD basics on AutoCAD followed by a 1/2 semester of 3D modelling. I know just enough drafting principles to get an effective sketch to our CAD department. I will NEVER profess to be a draftsman. I'm an engineer. Both fields are arts and require 2 different skill sets.

On the topic of 3D modelling, it is superior in almost every aspect. If a good draftsman operated a 3D modelling program, the results would be outstanding as you would have the best of both worlds - well detailed 2D drawings and 3D models. The 3D models can be used for FEA/CFD/assembly checks/virtual walkthroughs/etc, while the 2D detailed drawings can be used for construction. Both done by the same draftsman at the same time. The benefits and drawbacks come down to the operator, whether it be with a pen and paper or mouse and keyboard.

On a broader note, I have found that companies and individuals that cannot adopt the newer technologies, techniques and tools will soon find themselves obsolete and out of work. 3D modelling is one of those newer tools. We're not manufacturing/constructing/machining in 1813 anymore. It's time to grow up. Also, saying that you should have a good technical background to be "allowed" to read or approve a drawing is just an illustration of your unwillingness to accept the merging worlds of business and engineering. If you drafted a house for an individual with little technical ability, would you expect the customer to be able to fully read and understand the even the best drawings? Of course not! A good 3D model can better communicate the plans in a fraction of the time. And time isn't cheap anymore.

Ending my rant, I do appreciate a well crafted drawing (hand, 2D CAD, or 3D Model) that was made with pride. There is NO substitute for that.

 

[11echo]

I'd like to be clear about 3D programs, in certain disciplines I can see it would be very useful! Especially in the "mechanical" areas. I'm not trying to down grade all computer drafting programs, they have proven themselves and are here to stay! BUT relying on 3D computer programs to substitute for skill and knowledge is the true problem here, and especially in my discipline(process piping). AND the industry knows this! The old large engineering firms are beating the brush trying to bring back up the "old guys" for their experience! Hopefully they can help turn this industry around. With the price of oil at about $148/BBL. there are alot of folks wanting to build alot of facilities to capitalize in it, and are willing to spend alot of money to do so. It would be nice to see professional quality drawing to facilitate that!

I have to offer my apologies to kevinsherlock for highjacking his post here! I've "bend it" to my own rantings! ...Sorry! Next time I'll start my own, when I feel the need to "vent"! *G*

 

[kevinsherlock]

11echo
No apologies required. This thing evolved rather quickly. I felt better after my rant and rave posting. I have to say that the replies have been interesting too. Nice to know the read gave everyone a boost.
Cheers

 

[kmatte]

Nice to see that everyone is haveing the same problem. You should try being a Civil Engineer on land developement projects. I do commercial and industrial site developement design. Typically, my project budgets are 75% used before the rest of the team has even started schematic design. This is due to the governing agencies' permitting process. Most cities, watershed districts, and other agencies need approximate construction documents to perform their review. Imagine my surprise, after I have completed and received approval from these agencies, the Architect has change the building, moved doors, sidewalks,or/and the mechnical engineer designs a utility service at another location than what is approved.

I have had this happen on a project, and it has delayed the project start date by over 2 months since we had to go back to the City for additional engineering review. This was a worse case, since the building drastically changed(the building location on the site moved to the other side of the site).

These nice suprises from the Architects are greatly appreciated when all I have left in my budget is the moneys left for construction adminstration changes. I have gotten change orders for extra cash, but not always possible with some clients.