Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up. 67

[Alistair_Heaton]

That's a lot of capacity that's been lost. Must admit being Aberdonian we always associate Texas with hot and humid... Not snow storms.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nd-turbines-texas-power-outages-b1802596.html

 

[dik]

concur... but tarriffs, if high enough, do cut down on the demand substantially, and yes, the consumer pays for all tarriffs. That's why I was thinking it was so funny when Donald slapped all the tarriffs on the Chinese. To reiterate... sanctions will not work.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[JohnRBaker]

...and yes, the consumer pays for all tarriffs. That's why I was thinking it was so funny when Donald slapped all the tarriffs on the Chinese.

But the sheeple don't know that. These are the same people who think that Trump actually built 500 miles of NEW wall and that Mexico did pay for it.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[1503-44]

If it is a low value product, plastic spoons, pmost eople will still buy them. Tarriffs protect domestic industries from cheap foreign competition. Raising the foreigner's product equal to or higher than the domestically produced product, thereby allowing the domestic producer to retain his price and remain in business, or by reaching a fair value in the domestic market that allows domestic companies to make that product in country, creating local jobs, tax revenue and helping to equalise the balance of international trade (payments).

If sanctions don't work, why is the US so fixated on them. Somebody think they work.

Why are we talking about this, rather than carbon taxes?

 

[SnTMan]

...the consumer pays for all tariffs

So yes, ultimately the consumers of other countries, in particular the US, pay for China's climate transgressions. Beautiful.

Honestly the only thing I see working long term is for the various societies of the world to become prosperous enough that they can and will afford concern for the environment. Very long term.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[dik]

I can see Texas doing this...

As far as carbon footprint take a look at the per capita numbers (it's more meaningful)... other than a handful of small Middle East countries, the US is at the head of the list, by a fair margin... and China is down about #13 or so. China is not the big transgressor. Canada, the UK, Australia and the US (not in order are I think the top 4... without making excuses for Canada, we have issues with Climate and long travel distance that move us up on the 'list'.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[SnTMan]

Per capita, sure, but most figures show China at nearly double (total emissions) of US. That seems an important distinction to me, if we're concerned about C02.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[dik]

That's correct, but the China numbers are based on their huge population... when you look at the reality of things, where the carbon output is based on the individuals creating it... China #1 based on their large population as opposed to #13 (was, not sure now) based on per capita; the focus shifts a bit. The US becomes the leader of the pack... on a per capita basis, the UK, Australia, and Canada are near the top... I suspect that it's for political expedience... and to vilify... not the reality of things.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Fischstabchen]

Redsnake,

Try to make a car or more complicated than a spoon or cup without petroleum products. This idea that "we'll just switch to something else" is just a half baked idea that ignores decades research it took to make these products or the added expense that will get passed to the consumer.

I sometimes get this impression that some environmentalist are detached from the reality that most people are living paycheck to paycheck, have near zero net worth, and likely would not prioritize anything that adds to their cost of living. I think that some people think that some groups just don't care about the environment but what it is is the presence of more pressing concerns. This person that just doesn't care is a fiction. There isn't a person alive that ever thought "thank god for smog.". So, in my opinion, when you hear someone denying any human impact on the environment, most of the time what that is is someone saying "I can barely keep my head above water and you want me to give you more of my money." So, with something like moving away from natural gas, aside from the technical problems, you are never going to get buy in on this idea of going 100% renewables when it would likely mean tripling people's electrical bills. Every environmental initiative would sell itself if it helped people keep their head above water. Solar panels are starting to get to that point and that is something that sells itself. You can't expect someone to care about the ice caps when they are behind on their mortgage.

 

[SnTMan]

My definition of GREEN: Using the minimum required inputs to achieve the desired output. That's it.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[Spartan5]

the reality that most people are living paycheck to paycheck, have near zero net worth...

Yet these are the same people are tripping over themselves to get into Walmart on Black Friday to gorge themselves on “stuff.” How could they possibly find time to care about the ice caps when they have a fresh Netflix series to binge on one of their several television sets / tablets / smartphones.

Step right up...

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Agreed SntMan do the best you can to minimise resource burn.

Must admit they don't seem to have a solution what to do with solar panels after they have dropped their power output. I have sized my system for 25 years @70% but a lot people seem to be dumping the panels after they drop to 90%. And there doesn't seem to be any plan what to do with them apart from landfill.

Battery's certainly in the US seems to be mainly FLA 12V lead acid for my size of system, which seem to survive about 5 years before getting swapped out. My LiFe4PO have a 25 year lifespan and cost 2.5 times the price of a FLA system to set up, but last 5 times as long and you get to discharge them down to 5% if you want to. To be honest I don't have room for a equivalent capacity FLA system anyway and the 3 monthly maint on them has issues for me.

Its the required mix that's important along with what to do at night for the big picture along with redundancy and crisis management.

Maybe excess power during the summer/blowing a gale gets pumped into producing hydrogen which is then burned when the wind drops or the sun is hiding?

What I do know though is purely betting on market forces to sort it out will not work.

Quiet how to deal with the insurance policy of spin reserves etc I don't know.

 

[waross]

Maybe excess power during the summer/blowing a gale gets pumped into producing hydrogen which is then burned when the wind drops or the sun is hiding?

That brings up a question that I have wondered.
What kind of efficiency can you get converting electricity into hydrogen and back into heat energy?

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Probably pretty rubbish Bill. I wouldn't be surprised if its in 20-30% area.

But then again once you have your buffer tank full of it your just keeping it cold.

But I am pretty sure there will be other uses for it.

Burn it and you collect the water coming out the other side to split again.

To be honest though when you start heating domestically by direct burning it pretty horrible efficiency's anyway. Compared to what you could be getting using alternative methods. Same with cooling to be honest as well. I cool my underfloor heating pipes in the summer and have fans moving the air about. 2 kw of electricity used and I have a delta T of -13 degs the good way with the ground to get rid of it. If I was on an air heatpump system I would have +10 degs the bad way. After heatpump reverse direction in the summer I get 4.5 COP for heating water so I get the heat back I have just pumped out the house. Air would be better though for heating water if the outside temp is over 30.

BTW don't worry there is an active system that watches the floor temp and also calculates the dew point so the floor doesn't get wet. Its not triggered so far with a water feed temp of 10 deg C. And with the floor cool during the day using solar power everything turns off when the sun goes down and its good for the night.

 

[Fischstabchen]

Spartan5,

Yes, because the quality of life is amazing for the middle class and poor in the U.S. We all drive around Teslas on gold roads and gloat about our amazing job protections and health coverages and the health problems we don't put off treatment for or the food lines that we didn't wait in line for that were over a mile long or college loans that we still are not paying off 20 years later or how our kid's college tuition will not cost as much as a small house. The U.S. is truly a land of wonder if you are not wealthy.

How do you expect people to care about ice caps or whatever when there are very real immediate problems? It just starts feeling like environmental elitism when there is such a big disconnect from reality.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Nothing has changed, this has been happening for hundreds of years.

Its the same setup as it was when the Knights of the round table were giving the workers a good stabbing or a hot iron up the bum for taking a rabbit in their back garden. These days its collecting sunlight in your back Garden.

The rules change but its all circular to keep the peasants in their place. The real trick is to get them to fight so things never change. But they learned how to do that in Templar Knights period so its nothing new.

 

[1503-44]

Whats changed is that there are a lot more peasants now. Inflation adjusted wages have been decreasing ever since the initial development and the rise to a relatively high level of power of the middle class that began shortly after the many deaths from black plagues caused a near worldwide and extreme labour shortage. The peasants began to collect wages from the landowners, whereas prior to that time, under the feudal system, they only retained a portion of the crops that they grew on the landowner's estates. With wages they earned, many escaped the ties to working the fields for the elite class and began other occupations as tradesmen, shopkeepers and craftsmen. Some bought their own land. The labourers and newly greater middle class held much of that advantage until the advent of machines that displaced so many of them out of the labour markets during the rise to the industrial revolution and the overthrow of the ruling class and royalties of the mid 1700-1900. The decline of labour in the face of automation continues to this day.

Most conditions have gotten better for a good part of the world with technological progress, however today there are 100,000 + Americans alone that have at least $1E9 "in the bank", so unless that's you, you can see how the middle class is fairing. The scale is a sliding scale. You may not feel like you are working the land behind plow and sickle, but on that sliding scale, you just might be.

 

[davefitz]

As I recall, the 2 issues the utilities have with home solar PV is (a) safety of the lineman during maintenance of the local grid and (b) profits reduced due to home solar PV generation reducing the need for utility peak power resources, which are priced at inflated prices during daylight hours.

In areas with a large PV input ( california, hawaii, south australia) , the utility must also contend with fatigue damage of the thermal power plant pressure parts, caused by daily cycling of the large plants that were originally designed for once a year startups but now contend with 365 startups per year.


"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The linesmen safety in Europe is taken care of by having all inverters drop off line if they loose there grid reference. It is extremely difficult and problematic to run an auto transfer switch to disconnect and then go off grid. They want the whole lot disconnected including the transformer earth. Its sort of possible but very expensive plus you need a live test every year and they test something to do with the earthing at the same time. When I looked at it it was going to double the cost of my installation plus pay for the inspection every year for some specialist to travel a colossal distance and 3 days labour.


From what I see Australia is the same.

The other problem is that it causes power factor issues. Which Germany has tackled by making it mandatory to have ripple receivers and power factor controlling. The plants getting taken up and down is also controlled by the ripple receivers they can reduce solar injection if required or even turn it all off remotely but continue to allow home consumption.

The who gets the money/profits is what's driving the lobbying the world over.

 

[1503-44]

Good point about start cycles. Quite true. In fact many were probably originally designed to cover base load, but with the advent of alternative sources that cannot be counted on to cover base load, but none the less are producing power, that has pushed them into peaker service. Its a use them or lose them situation, for which they are not well suited, but none the less can continue to function until they can eventually be replaced with heavy cyclic duty units as those older designs burn out, or develop battery or other storage capacity to act on their behalf. We still need peaker capacity of some kind, so its them or nothing for the moment. Actually it is the same situation that faces all industries that operate in areas where technology is advancing at a rapid pace to accommodate needs that also seem to be changing year to year. It seemed that the A380 was just coming into widespread use only to be quickly discontinued. My desktop is 10yrs old now, but I also use it less and less, so its cyclic load is also decreasing and it can probably run another ten years as a result. . Perhaps batteries will take over some of the peaker's duties and they will be able to run another 10 years as well.

 

[SnTMan]

What kind of efficiency can you get converting electricity into hydrogen and back into heat energy?

Couple of papers on the "hydrogen economy". Somewhat dated, but the physics have not changed.

Spoiler: It's not economical

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand