The Corporate Gears to fight 11

[HornTootinEE]

Question for the masses:

Some background: I have 4 years of expierience in the utility industry since graduting from college with an EE degree, Power emphasis. My first year I worked in our company's substation department, doing system protection, subtation control design, etc. After a year I transferred to another location as a distribution engineer, doing pretty much anything distribution: Substations, system protection, circuit design, underground, overhead, Distribution SCADA, etc. You name it, it gets thrown on my desk.

I have been working pretty hard, doing well, getting great reviews at my performance evals from my boss, being told I'm doing above and beyond the level of work the company expects for an engineer at my level. (I'm not tooting my horn, just telling you what my boss is saying). I'm trying to take on large projects, extra duties as needed, etc. But asking for a promotion from Eng. II to Eng. III or an above-average raise (better than 3%) gets met with "ah, eh well HR won't allow that" type of crap. The "HR won't allow it" has been the prevailing attitude since I started with pretty much anything. So, I ask HR about it, they say "Well, Management has to come to us with promotions and raises and we pretty much just make sure everything is legal, we aren't slowing things down"

Now the question: How do you fight the corporate gears like that? Do you fight it, put up with it, or find another company to work for? My wages are literally average or slightly below, my benefits are maybe average for the industry, and vacation/holidays is also around average. Retirement is decent, but average again.

People talk the economy, but in our geographic area, the economy is not slowing down one bit, especially for the utility sector. Even the company throws "the economy" at us but has posted record earnings the past two years.

SO, in the seasoned opinions of those on this board, whats next?

 

[Compositepro]

Midpoint is a salary administration term. It has nothing to do with average pay for a profession. When annual raises are announced the percent raise is based on midpoint for your pay grade. So if you are below midpoint you will get better raises.

In a large organization everyone is just a cog in the machine. If you are lucky you will get to work on an important project and do a good job which will be recognized by your boss and other managers. This can lead to better than average raises. Then you will reach a point where you are really well paid and the company is not doing well and some manager who has been there for 2 months is looking to cut costs.

 

[mechengdude]

You have gotten some great feedback from the community so far that seems to be on point. I'll add my 2 cents.

If I read the post correctly, you have four years of experience. I would not expect any engineer with that amount of experience to be an Engineer III. There should be plenty of room in the salary band to get a good raise as an Engineer II.

The trick is navigating the office politics on how to achieve a good raise if it's even possible at your present company. For the most part I would agree with what you heard from the HR folks. They basically just do what they are told assuming it doesn't specifically violate the law or a specific written company SOP. If someone in your management chain wants you to get a good raise they could make it happen.

So, now on to the next step as you asked.
1. Polish your resume and start job hunting while you maintain a good work ethic at your current job.
2. Ask your immediate supervisor what specific tasks or goals you must meet during your current performance period to warrant a raise of X% during the next review cycle.
3. Be prepared to change jobs. ( I tried #2 once and after meeting all the requirements still got the standard 3%)

Good luck.

 

[HornTootinEE]

Thanks everyone for the great advice. Seems you all mostly agree on the direction forward. To comment mechengdude, I am already at the "midpoint" for an Engineer II, and I've only been an Eng. II for 2 yrs. I was at the midpoint of an Eng. I when I got promoted. The issue there is the pay grade they have Engineers in hasn't changed in many years, and as starting salaries have gone up, the pay grade hasn't. My starting wage wasriduclously close to the company pay grade midpoint for an Engineer I. Of course I didn't know that until after I was promised a 6 month raise then had a glowing review and told "HR said you were too close to your midpoint." So in two years of meager raises I was at the midpoint, then now in another two years I'm pushin the midpoint again for an engineer II but have to wait until at least next year to hit a III. You are right I'm probably not expierienced enough for a Eng. III, but when thats your only avenue to a higher midpoint, thats the fight I felt I probably should have fought. Also, I've had little or no mentoring in my position as the only engineers senior to me are in another location. They mentor what they can over the phone once in awhile, but it's not very direct. Point being here I get all the projects any senior engineer would, granted I don't complete them as quickly and require more revisions than they would, but I have to do the work. I'm not putting in for a senior position, but arguing there should be some wage/position flexibility to compensate going above and beyond. Above and beyond doesn't always mean working 90 hours a week either.

 

[KENAT]

The definitions of "Engineer II", "Engineer III"... aren't set in stone for all of industry in all of the world etc. as far as I know - though if someone can tell me otherwise I'm open to being informed.

At my place they are related to 'Radford Salary Survey'

http://www.radford.com/

definitions.

However' they'll play fast and loose, I was bumped up to an Eng IV when I went direct here so that my manager could get me the pay he wanted.

However, then last year on my pay raise notification I think my manager printed more than he was meant to and it showed the salary range for Eng 4 and I was below minimum. However, honestly for what I do, I figure I make OK money (though I wouldn't turn down a raise;-). Also being apparently low paid for my position may have worked in my favor in terms of not getting laid off over the last few years.

So anyway, I'd only worry about your companies definition of Engineering Grades, and don't go trying to compare them to other companies.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[Qshake]

I'm sort of behind in responses but nonetheless here is my take:

Manager - Is likely reviewing the group as a whole to see where everyone's salary/service range is and has to compare that with the budget he's give by higher management. Within that constraint the manager has to make sure he keeps everyone happy too. No matter how much you like to think your compensation is private others have ways to find out. So it may be that the manager is weakly blaming HR as a way to abruptly end your discussion. It also may very well be that no one went to bat for him or others during his time and so he sees little motivation or reward in it for him. Remember he likely has to go to higher management on increases above a certain percentage.

HR - Is more than likely speaking the truth. I have never known the HR department in an engineering enviroment to do anything else but make recommendations regarding the legality or business sense of promotions, firings, layoffs, compensations, hires etc. It's always the management, be they engineers or not.

I would recommend talking to your boss more in-depth if he allows. Show him why its good for him to pursue this matter and reward you. Often times it may come down to how much savings has your work resulted in either for reduced design time or reduced construction costs (substations etc). If you can support savings you can turn that into a reward fairly easily I think.

Good luck.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[HDS]

just to add another story...

I once worked somewhere that had a review of pay grades by a HR consulting firm to make all the acquisitions the same. The end result was that the grades were lowered and I was stuck at %110. They did not want to promote me or anyone to the higher grade so I was stuck. The end result was that an engineering department of 15+ went down to 2.

HR never likes to give a complete answer.

Don't expect anything from the PE unless it is needed for the job or ads value to the employer.

 

[HornTootinEE]

Not sure if anyone is still following this, but to add again here later: My boss is literally a year older than me, and only has about 3 yrs of time on me, and those 3 years are as my boss, not doing anything engineering. He's one of these guys that doesn't allow training, doesn't allow much growth, takes credit for your work with upper management, and also doesn't allow you face time with his boss or people higher up. How do you deal with that kind of situation as far as getting noticed by others than your boss in order to get ahead?

 

[MikeHalloran]

Upper Management is probably aware of you; some might even like you.

They like your boss more, because he keeps you working, cheap.

That clearly does not please you.

So, why the HELL are you STILL there?



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[HornTootinEE]

Location, Opportunity, and timing... The three reasons I'm still stuck in my seat.

 

[Ron]

What Mike said!

 

[jmw]

I think it is imperitive that managers identify and reward those few employees that are vital to the company.

Oh dear.
Yes, I suppose this might be possible in a utopian world...
The problem is that such employees are a problem, assuming the possibility of vital employees is admitted, which it often isn't.

Companies don't like to have employees that are vital.
They might be run over by trucks at inconvenient moments.
Employees who are vital tend to want to be paid as such, if they ever discover their status....
HR are supposed to have succession planning in place which generally is directed toward to replacing anticipated losses such as through retirement, but they generally have no way to replace immediately any one who has a vital role, sorry, who has become a vital employee, I should not confuse "vital role" with "vital employee".

The probability is that most of the candidates interviewed for any position will fall short in some way or another.
The problem with key skills posts is always how to fill them, so much so that if a business depends on having key employees it probably won't survive. So companies have to find ways to operate efficiently with "average" employees.

So every job specification for recruitment is often a wish list for an ideal candidate and a bench mark against which to validate the candidates.
It isn't too far a stretch to suggest that the "ideal" employee would be treated with suspicion and caution; considered as "overqualified", perhaps and asked extensively why he wants this job and if he is there for the long run (the corollary of an ideal employee is that they can find other jobs equally easily....)

The risk of employing such candidates is that they are hard to replace. A business that comes to depend on such employees i.e. to require the extra ability rather than to accommodate the average, becomes vulnerable in the event the "vital employee" dies, or gets to realise how valuable (s)he is and either wants more money or quits for a better job.

Hence, many companies, and especially HR, have declared that there is no such animal as an irreplaceable employee.
Which is tantamount to saying there is no such thing as a "vital" employee though there may well be vital positions.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[SiliconeAurora]

Even if all that is true (and, in my experience, it seems to be), it seems a bit tangential to the conversation. HornTootinEE is probably not vital or irreplaceable. He’s just, at least according to him, working hard and underpaid.

Location, Opportunity, and timing

So nobody will hire you? Or you don't want to move? Or you just aren't looking? Pretty vague answer there.

 

[jmw]

Yes, that's right, but it's all part of the same mentality.
They pay what the job is worth not what the employee is worth.
Being better than the average expectation is personally satisfying but rarely appropriately rewarded. Sure, managers value getting more than they expected and may go some way to trying to keep the employee happy but in thee end they will not pay what the employee is worth.

This is one reason why the best paid engineers are often those who regularly trade jobs, who regularly test their market value.

Of course, when a "valued" (undervalued) employee leaves a job management forget what the expectations for the post were and try and recruit to replace the skill level they lost and end up having to pay way more than they paid the departing employee....

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Latexman]

I don't know Mike, sometimes it works out. I took my company's counteroffer in 1987 and I'm still with the same business group. We've been sold twice since then, but they haven't screwed me yet. There have been some close calls, but I'm happy.

Good luck,
Latexman

 

[MikeHalloran]

Well, that's one mark for the other column, counteroffer made and accepted with a long-term positive outcome.

The sample is not large enough to be statistically significant either way, really.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[HornTootinEE]

"So nobody will hire you? Or you don't want to move? Or you just aren't looking? Pretty vague answer there."

Location: I hate to jump and move to a location that sucks

Opportunity: Pretty tough out there right now, and don't want to repeat my current situation. Maybe this is more of a fear problem than anything

Timing: Wife is a school teacher, can't ditch her contract mid-year very easily.

 

[ischgl99]

Don't listen to the news about the job opportunities, there are many unfilled jobs out there because companies cannot find a suitable candidate. Companies are being very picky since they know it costs a lot of money to hire the wrong candidate and are willing to wait for the right one.

We are looking for a maintenance engineer where I work and the few resumes we recieved were very poor, so poor to the point where we might not interview any of them. One was in the financial industry and it was obvious he was just sending resumes to anything listed in the hopes of getting an interview. You will stand out in the crowd if you make the effort to send a good resume that you spent some time on. Based on what I have seen over the last 5-6 years of interviewing candidates, the vast majority of the resumes are so poor that a well thought out resume immediately stands out in the crowd.

You can always move to the new job and your wife follows once her school year is over. I would not move to a new location with the family until I had spent some time there to make sure the job is worth moving the family for.

 

[indme]

Every unhappy engineer that I know leaves the job if he feels he is underpaid, and then states that reason during the exit interview without asking for or accepting a counter offer. As other people mentioned, everyone knows that the counteroffer comes with stigma and retribution.

Eventually, when enough people do this, it causes a shift in the company strategy on salaries. I quit at my last job because I was underpaid relative to the cost of living. The company realized that it had a lot of people under 30, and people under 30 will accept unfair salaries in a expensive city because that city has a good nightlife.

Many of us left in succession. The result was a 15% pay raise across the board for the people that were still there. Engineers as professionals are vastly underpaid compared with our counterparts in medicine and law. It hurt to both miss the 15% raise and stay in a city that was very enjoyable to me, but I have satisfaction in knowing that my quitting helped the people who stayed to get better pay. They only stayed because they were restricted and could not move away to a better paying job like I did.

 

[Sideswiper]

Wow, HornTootin, if I didn't know better I'd think you were just an alternate screenname of mine. I'm a system protection engineer II myself.

I'm changing companies (actually position also) in a month, mostly for money. Was going to ask for a counteroffer, but decided it wasn't worth the hastle. Once I got that job offer in hand, all the things about the current job I'd been trying to ignore started bubbling up, and all the uncertainies about the new position started to look exciting.

I could follow the example of other people I know and come back to this company in the future, with increased pay and respect just for being somewhere else a few years. Crazy how that works.

 

[HornTootinEE]

Sideswiper-

Glad to hear I'm not alone. I work with others that feel the same way I do, but you never know if thats just "misery loves company" or if it's the way things our.

As young engineers at our company none of us see much growth opportunity as engineers, so either our attitudes are wrong or there really isn't much but a dead-end. management folks will tell you there is plenty of growth opportunity, but they all mean management. The only people who respect your engineer prowess are other engineers. Management constantly undermines and pushes at you from above and the labor force contstantly pounds at you from the bottom, or from above also I guess as most of them are paid more than the engineers too.

Ok, that was a whiny rant.