The Cycle of Global Warming 42

[LCruiser]

It's not a question of "more being necessary." Can you not survive on half your salary, even if you have to live in a van down by the river? It a question of quality.

And yes, we should concentrate on real pollution. The convolution of that with CO2 makes real emission controls more difficult.

If you don't think we need to burn fossil fuels to enhance our environment, stop using gasoline and electricity. See where you get.

No, I don't think we're sustainable right now. But that's beside the point.

 

[2dye4]

Lcruiser
"all we know is the deck is stacked toward increased CO2 is good."

Is this true now only because it counteracts prior human
activity, or was it allways a good thing to bring more
CO2 into the enviroment.

By enviroment I meant the standard definition used throught
this thread to mean natural envirmoment, not my personal
enviroment as pertains to electricity and transport.
So lets seperate the question.

Do we need to continue to burn fossil fuels to improve
or just maintain the carrying capacity of our enviroment.

If we are not sustainable at our current consumption rate
then why should we not start now to reduce it in ways
that spread the economic hit as broadly as possible.
You have to start some time. You said so yourself we
are not sustainable.
We are just like a credit card junkie thinking the lottery
will come along and bail us out.

 

[LCruiser]

2dye4 -

It's the Tragedy of the Commons.

Why should we decrease our efficiency even further? How many people in China or India make, for example, $50k per year? Why cobble us further in the global market? Altruistic behavior leads to elimination from the human race.

http://tinyurl.com/6p33g

 

[z633]

The way I see it is that you can create LC’s planet, Venus, the caldera of hell. Or my planet, Mars, thin atmosphere with vast reserves of subsurface frozen H20. Well which is better a world to regenerate, someplace that will eat your belt buckle in 10 seconds or another that can be survived in and manipulated?

The notion, plants need CO2, sure they do. The genetically static commercial crops love it (maybe). But also are rapidly infinitely adaptable wild weeds. They grow quicker and choke out the good ones. Go swim in Lake Michigan fungi pond for instance.

And what a political soap box ploy. Blame it on the Chinese, a group of people that historically use what 100 no maybe 1000 less fossil fuel per capita than the Anglos.
Sounds like a cleverly designed attempt by the oil lobbyist again to me.

Another MIA would be ok, if restores the glaciers, providing clean drinking water for another 2-3 generations + plus would save a few endangered species. It is easier to heat than cool, passive energy speaking wise.

I just got a petition from John McCain Rep. AZ to help reduce global warming. We all know what a pork-barrel special interest lover he is.

Historically speaking, fires occur after bad wiring is installed, there is obviously no correlation.

So take your Lincoln Continental and filler up.

 

[2dye4]

Good

Then lets at least answear the question more honestly.

We won't cut our emissions because it will put a damper
on the party were having. It has nothing to do with
any scientific debate. We just say that because we
haven't the courage to look our future generations in
the eye and say "Sorry we burned your resources for you"

That I like.
The first step for an alcoholic is admitting the problem.

 

[electricpete]

ok, we know that
CO2, methane and a few others tend to cause warming.
sulfur aerosols and a few others tend to cause cooling.

Which is the bigger effect that stares us in the face? The warming effect. Is there any credible source that disagrees? Not that I know of. I will be glad to hear if I’m wrong (a link, not an opinion from a forum member).

So all this talk about coal plants... fixing it wrong the last time... global dimming... doesn’t change the fundamental conclusion that we should be working toward limiting CO2 and other warming gases (unless there is someone recommending to increase sulfur aerosols... I don’t believe I have heard anyone recommend that).

I have provided above links to credible sources supporting these views. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable request to expect that people provide links to support alternate their views. The absence of any real response to my query begings to lead me to believe there is no source other than arm-chair climatologists, politicians, lobbyists and the like. But I am still waiting to be proven wrong.


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[VisiGoth]

What is the basis for wanting cooling? Over vast historical time the warming is of greater benefit to mankind than the ice age it replaced. There will be many who are harmed by warming, but IMO less harm than the benefit of greater airable lands. The main problem is how to take care of the people who will be harmed by warming during the adaptation cycle.

 

[scotty7]

People keep saying that increased CO2 can help the plants grow. Well, there are some issues with that: the ocean absorbs some of the extra CO2, making it more acidic. So, creatures that rely on calcium carbonate deposition for their shells are severely compromised. So if you like lobster, get it while it lasts. And krill forms a significant part of the food chain too... oh, and coral...

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19025542.600.html

 

[electricpete]

"What is the basis for wanting cooling?"
We don't want cooling. We want to limit the warming that is already in-progress... even as we continue to add warming agnets (CO2) at an increasing rate.

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[epoisses]

Electricpete,
I fully agree with you that we're not all experts in this subject (I am speaking for myself here) and I fully respect your opinion etc etc, but please let me know: WHY do you (or "we" as you wrote) want to limit the warming that appears to be in progress? Why do you consider it a problem and how do you rate it against other problems like malaria, aids, famine and the like?

 

[ewh]

Just heard on NPR (I know, leftist radio) that due to the change in climate, high elevation winds are carrying flying, disease causing insects far from their original habitat. Denge fever and malaria are just two diseases that are becoming more common where they were unheard of before.

 

[electricpete]

epoisses ,
A small group of people today in Greenland and northwards are already acutely feeling the effects of this warming. We can see we have had an effect and the writing is on the wall that we need to amend our ways or the impacts will be felt by a much wider population in low-lieing coastal areas.

We can choose to continue to ignore the problem until it becomes unavoidable... or we can take action now.

I like 2dye4’s analogy that ignoring global warming is like living above your means using credit cards. The time to take action is not when the interest costs 50% of your income and the creditors are banging down your door. The earlier you deal with the problem the more options you have and the better solution you can select.

Yes there is some economic cost today in acting responsbily for tomorrow.

You bring up a good point that if we could channel to economic benefit of our present consumptions towards sovling world problems there may be more benefit. I don’t know whether there is necessarily any direct connection between economic benefit/spending in one area vs the other. But to the extent there is a connection, I don’t have any basis for comparing the benefit of $25 billion invested in one good cause vs $25 billion invested in another good cause.

To make any intellligent decision on these matters, we first need to understand and face the facts. My fear is that most of Americans don’t understand the facts and they are more inclined to believe the spin that comes from the oil lobbiests than to accept an “inconvenient truth” (sorry, couldn’t resist). Should we expect leadership from our politiciations? Unfortunately in our political environment, a politician who demands hard economic choices will likely lose favor from a public that doesn’t understand the reason for the sacrifice. Absent any grass roots push for action, our political leadership is content for the most part to take the politically-expedient short-term actions which favor the economy.

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[electricpete]

Wow – I used the terms related to politics/political 4 times in the last 3 sentences. Whoops... make that 5. “politiciations” should be “politications”. Maybe my next crusade should be illiteracy ;-)

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[electricpete]

Did I just do that? Nope it was my evil illiterate twin.

“politiciations” should be “politicians”.

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[z633]

Well, I feel a little guilty, but LC's last link indicated when in a no-win tic-tack-toe match one should pull out a 2x4 and club his opponent to death.

Just now, what to do with the d** petition. I do not want to get on the liberal green neck list of suckers for a cause.

 

[epoisses]

electricpete,
I know this is very annoying but I think it's essential that these fundamental questions are answered: so what is the problem that these people in Greenland experience? And can't we address it more efficiently than trying to cut worldwide CO2 emissions?

(I don't know much about Greenland except that it was pretty snowy when I once flew over it. If I lived there I guess I wouldn't mind the temperature going up by a few degrees. And I am not trying to be sarcastic.)

 

[electricpete]

I have pasted some links below based on a 15 minute google search. I didn't take time to select only reputable sources as I did in my links above. I don't think there is any serious disagreement with the fact that a dramatic warming trend is in progress in the artic (the only area of disagreement by some is why.)

http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/qthinice.asp

"Average temperatures in the Arctic region are rising twice as fast as they are elsewhere in the world. Arctic ice is getting thinner, melting and rupturing. For example, the largest single block of ice in the Arctic, the Ward Hunt Ice Shelf, had been around for 3,000 years before it started cracking in 2000. Within two years it had split all the way through and is now breaking into pieces. The polar ice cap as a whole is shrinking. Images from NASA satellites show that the area of permanent ice cover is contracting at a rate of 9 percent each decade. If this trend continues, summers in the Arctic could become ice-free by the end of the century"

"The melting of once-permanent ice is already affecting native people, wildlife and plants. When the Ward Hunt Ice Shelf splintered, the rare freshwater lake it enclosed, along with its unique ecosystem, drained into the ocean. Polar bears, whales, walrus and seals are changing their feeding and migration patterns, making it harder for native people to hunt them. And along Arctic coastlines, entire villages will be uprooted because they're in danger of being swamped. The native people of the Arctic view global warming as a threat to their cultural identity and their very survival."

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/envronmt/2001/0716arctic.htm

"The evidence for global warming across Alaska is stark. The average temperature has risen 3C - 4.5C in winter, 10 times the rate elsewhere in the world. In Kotzebue the tundra has turned from spongy to dry and the sourdocks and many other plants have disappeared. The region's polar bears have lost 20% of their weight in the past few years. The arctic ice is 40% thinner than in 1960. In Deering it is melting so fast that hunting on it has to abandoned early, and in Point Lay it is now too thin to walk on. Down in Fairbanks, the gateway to the arctic, the golf course is remarkable for two reasons: you can watch people teeing off in summer at midnight and you can see that they have some unintended holes to contend with. The holes and the dips and waves in the adjoining Farmer's Loop Road, are the most obvious examples of what happens when the permafrost, which underlies the region to a depth of 600 metres (2,000ft), starts to melt."

http://www.nunatsiaq.com/archives/nunavut000131/nvt20121_04.html

"The commercial shows the disastrous effect of receding sea ice on polar bear populations, and the hardship that more snowfall brings to the endangered Peary caribou. 'Our way of life is on the edge of extinction. Plants and animals are dying,' said Rosemarie Kuptana, a former president of the Inuit Circumpolar Conference who was recruited to host the 30-second spot."

http://www.islamdaily.net/EN/Contents.aspx?AID=228

'Nature [MAGAZINE] went on to detail the visible and measurable impact of climate change in Alaska.


“Temperatures have changed more in Alaska over the past 30 years than they have anywhere else on Earth: winters have warmed by a startling 2-3 °C, compared with a global average of 1 °C. That's guaranteed to have dramatic effects in an Arctic landscape, where even small temperature changes can make the difference between freezing and melting. In Fairbanks, a city built on permafrost, the annual mean temperature is just -2 °C. If it pops above zero, residents can say goodbye to the frozen ground beneath their feet, along with the free iceboxes in their basements. The impacts on wildlife, and the people who depend on it for their livelihoods, will be huge.”


Additionally, at this week’s UN Framework Convention on Climate Change Inuit people of Nunavut in northern Canada revealed that they are asking the American Commission on Human Rights to visit the Arctic to see the devastation being caused by global warming as a matter of human rights.


Sheila Watt-Cloutier, the chairwoman of the Inuit Circumpolar Conference, which represents all 155,000 of her people inside the Arctic circle, said: “We want to show that we are not powerless victims. These are drastic times for our people and require drastic measures.”


“We are already bearing the brunt of climate change - without our snow and ice our way of life goes. We have lived in harmony with our surroundings for millennia, but that is being taken away from us,” Watt-Cloutier continued.


"People worry about the polar bear becoming extinct by 2070 because there will be no ice from which they can hunt seals, but the Inuit face extinction for the same reason and at the same time.'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4568630.stm

'I spent many hours talking to the Inuit hunters and the people of Qaanaaq and Siorapuluk who told me of the problems they were facing in terms of changing weather patterns.


The ice is melting sooner and freezing later, it's thinner which makes hunting difficult; the winds are more unpredictable.

The polar bears and other animals are changing their hunting and migratory patterns; the type of snow falling is changing, which again is making hunting on the ice more difficult and dangerous.

I left the Arctic having formulated the conclusion that their concern over their land and future is great, although an element of sad resignation exists.

The Inuit voice is almost inaudible on the world stage and one cannot help but wonder if anyone even knows they exist.

Amid the media hype of the race for the US presidency in 2004, I noticed a tiny newspaper report that said the world's foremost scientists predicted the north polar ice would all but disappear in the next 50-70 years.


The Arctic is the world's early warning system and the red light is flashing - just how arrogant and complacent can we afford to be?'

http://seagrant.uaf.edu/news/01ASJ/06.08.01Alaska-heat.html

'Scientists for years have predicted that as the Arctic climate warms, sea ice, glaciers and permafrost will melt, sea levels will rise, and the tree line will move north. As Doug Schneider reports in this week's Arctic Science Journeys Radio, their predictions are coming true, and the changes they'll bring will have a profound effect on Alaska's people and environment.'

http://www.thousandreasons.org/get_article.php?article_id=174

Already global climate change is affecting the lives and livelihoods of some of the world's most vulnerable people, threatening millennia-old cultures, and literally stealing the ground beneath people's feet. The people of the Inuit nation near the Arctic Circle are seeing deformed fish, depleted caribou herds, dying forests, starving seals, and emaciated polar bears. Recently, the Inuit began battling with northward-migrating mosquitoes and other infections disease-carrying insects, which they had never before encountered. As the sea ice melts, rising water levels are washing away entire coastal villages.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science/arctic-climate-impact-assessment.html#Observed_changes

'Temperature: Mean annual surface air temperature over the past 50 years has increased 3.6 to 5.4°F in Alaska and Siberia and decreased by 1.8°F over southern Greenland.

Sea ice: Sea ice extent in late summer decreased 15 to 20% over the past 30 years (see above).

Glaciers: Between 1961 and 1998, North American glaciers lost about 108 cubic miles of ice—about equivalent to spreading one foot of water over California, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, and Colorado.

Vegetation: White spruce, the most valuable timber species of the North American boreal forest, experienced sharp declines as summer temperatures frequently exceeded the tree's critical threshold temperature.

Marine Animals: Almost no seal pups, dependent on sea ice, survived in Canada's Gulf of St. Lawrence during the ice-free years of 1967, 1981, 2000, 2001, and 2002.

Fisheries: Warming in the Bering Sea after 1977 has increased the herring, Pacific cod, skates, and flatfish species, and Pacific salmon commercial catches have been high since 1980.

Indigenous Culture: Peary caribou populations on Canadian arctic islands plummeted from 26,000 in 1961 to 1000 by 1997, affecting people whose culture is intertwined with caribou'

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[GregLocock]

And yet, in recent historical times Greenland was warm enough to support a permanent population of farmers, ex Vikings.

Read Collapse by Jared Diamond for the details.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[SomptingGuy]

I haven't seen his name in this thread and I guess a lot of the posters will have this book or at least have read it. But anyway, for those who haven't, it's well worth a read:

http://www.lomborg.com/books.htm

 

[corus]

Another aspect of global warming is, perversely, the 'big chill' to northern europe, and in particular the UK. See

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1602579,00.html

with reference to the sudden change in the gulf stream.

Perhaps this is why some scientists referred to the coming of an ice age, 'some' referring to those scientists in europe.

corus