The End of Mil-Hdbk-5 20

[crackman]

Hi All

The changeover to MMPDS has been coming for quite a while. The main reason of course for it is "money" as usual. As far as I know, the FAA is recognizing the MMPDS as if it were synonimous with Mil-Hndbk-5. So no worries.

As for the reasonsing, basically, the government is looking to industry to start footing the bill for developing material data, what do you think? not very likely and if so only in small amounts. What this might mean is that as new alloys are developed and say funded by a single OEM such as Boeing (examples are 2524 and many others), they may remain proprietary. I think this will end up hurting the industry but may be necessary despite this. Anyways, I think the addition of data and revisions will be far fewer in the future. By the way, always hold on to your old Mil-Hndbk-5 versions (A thru J) because they are the only ones with data for the old nasty materials like 7178, 7079, etc.

Not sure if you guys are aware but the government including the military is moving closer and closer to using the FAA to cover more of the certification burden. In fact, many military projects (transports of course not fighters) are going this way. Basically off-the-shelf commercial aircraft but impressed/modified to military requirements but using the FAA as the certification vehicle via STC. As a side note, the government is still debating who should be overseeing public aircraft (includes VIP, firefighters, etc.). I believe these too will come under the FAA umbrella soon enought.

Anyways, good luck.

James Burd
FAA DER - Structures/Fatigue and Damage Tolerance

 

[Sparweb]

It is cost-effective for a military to retire its old aircraft (and especially heli's) if they can simply make them conform to a civilian Type Certificate. This is the case for the Canadian Armed Forces Griffons, which I understand are basically a Bell 412CF, as shown on the TC.

As for firefighters, Aviation Week had an amusing comment a month ago about the Department of Forestry creating its own "internal mini-FAA" to deal with the burgeoning issues of continuing airworthiness in the fleet of old war-horses it contracts.

With all the lessons that have been learned from the 50+ year old ex-military aircraft, procuring new military a/c with Type Certificates is wise, especially in the long term. 75+ years, in some cases, like the Martin Mars, Catalinas, and Douglas Invaders. Many have decades more life left in them.


Steven Fahey, CET
"Simplicate, and add more lightness" - Bill Stout

 

[14COMANCHE]

THIS IS MY FIRST LOOK AT THIS SITE. I HAVE BEEN LOOKING ALL THRU IT. MAYBE YOU CAN DIRECT ME. I AM A STRUCTURAL DER IN OKLAHOMA AND AM CURRENTLY OUT OF STATE BUT WORKING AN AIRCRAFT STRUCTURAL PROBLEM AND DO NOT HAVE MY MIL-HDBK(MMPDS) WITH ME AND I NEED THE OLD SPECS FOR 7178 T76 BAR OR EXT. I KNOW THEY ARE NOT IN THE LATEST STANDARDS AND I HAVE THE OLD DOCUMENTS AT HOME.

DO YOU HAVE THE STRENGTH SPECS(Ftu--ETC) FOR THIS OR TELL ME WHERE I CAN GET IT.

THANKS

 

[monkeydog]

I checked MMPDS & MIL-HDBK-5J, no properies listed for 7178.

 

[Kenneth]

It's not in Rev H either.

While certainly not "authoritative", here's some data:

http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MA7178T6

 

[737eng]

From Mil-Hdbk-5D
7178-T76 Ext
S-values only listed
0.125-0.249
Ftu=76KSI
Fsu=42KSI
Fbru(2.0) = 140 KSI

0.25-0.499
Ftu=77KSI
Fsu=43KSI
Fbru(2.0) = 141 KSI

 

[Kenneth]

Oh s _ _ _. I pasted the wrong link in my post above. 14COMANCHE had asked for T76 properties and I psoted a link to T6 data. While 737eng's post is exactly what you were looking for, the "correct" ( but still "unauthoritative") link for the T76 condition is

http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MA7178T76.

My apologies for my error.

 

[monkeydog]

It looks like AMS-QQ-A-200/14 replaced the QQ spec called out in MIL-HDBK-5D. If you are buying new material for you "fix" here is what the AMS is calling out:

Temper = T76
Thickness (bar and shapes); diameter (rod and wire) = Up thru 0.249
Area Square Inches = Up thru 20
Tensile Strength min ksi = 76.0
Yield Strength at 0.2 percent offset min ksi = 66.0
Elongation in 2 inches or 4 times D minimum percent = 7

Monkeydog

 

[Sparweb]

The FAA is keeping this document a "moving target". Here's where I found it today:

http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/ar-mmpds-01.pdf

If anybody finds it got moved again, let me know.

Steven Fahey, CET
"Simplicate, and add more lightness" - Bill Stout

 

[Sparweb]

Or...

from NTIS

http://www.ntis.gov/search/product.asp?ABBR=PB2003106632&starDB=GRAHIST

$223.50 for a paper copy.

Note how the preamble goes:

This year, 2003, marks the first year of publication of the MMPDS Handbook and the final year of publication of MIL-HDBK-5. For this year only, MMPDS-01 and MIL-HDBK-5J will be technically equivalent. In the spring of 2004, when the 1st Change Notice of MMPDS-01 is published, MIL-HDBK-5 will be designated noncurrent and MMPDS will become the only government recognized source in the U.S. of published design allowable properties for metallic commercial and military aircraft structures and mechanically fastened joints. In this way, the 65-year legacy of MIL-HDBK-5, and its predecessor ANC-5, will be maintained.

Funny, haven't seen any changes yet...


Steven Fahey, CET
"Simplicate, and add more lightness" - Bill Stout

 

[WKTaylor]

Folks...

With my work on very old acft [early/mid-50's designs], I have been forced to maintain digital copies of each MIL-HDBK-5 revision from MIL-HDBK-5 [original] thru ... 5J & MMPDS. Some alloy allowables, and most procurement specs, have changed over time... and the particularly "bad-actor" alloys (SCC & exfoliation corrosion or fatigue-poor etc, such as 7079-T6, 7178-T6, old mag/aluminum casting alloys, etc)... that were liberally used in early designs... have been stripped from the books as usage decreased.

IHS has these older versions as needed... just remember to incorporate current standards for SCC [as needed].


Regards, Wil Taylor

 

[johnfalky]

The .pdf version on the FAA netsite still appears to have a bug in it and repeatedly hangs up during downloading. While updating such documents is a neccessity, I sure wish the FAA would bring its netsite under control and make these documents "findable."

 

[badpeanut]

Is anyone familiar with the ESDU 00932? Would it have properties for "newer" aluminum alloys (example: 7136, 7249)? Are there any reasonbly priced options to get a copy (I was told $1600 purchase price plus $1000/yr for updates)?

 

[Kenneth]

From:

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/DraftDoc/CommNotices.htm

This notice announces the availability of and request comments on a proposed plan to manage the Metallic Materials Properties Development and Standardization (MMPDS) Handbook which has replaced the now cancelled “Department of Defense Handbook: Metallic Materials and Elements for Aerospace Vehicle Structures,” (MIL-HDBK-5). The intent is to make the MMPDS Handbook the primary source of metallic materials and fastener allowable properties demonstrated to comply with FAA airworthiness requirements. The proposed plan presents a strategy to secure funding for the MMPDS Handbook technical coordination process from multiple sources. Those include other government agencies, industry stakeholders, the private sector, and from sales of the handbook and related products."

The "plan" is available (as a "Word" document at the above link:

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/DraftDoc/Fed Reg NOAMMPDS-final3.doc)

along with a July 5, 2005 due date for comments...

 

[rb1957]

to wktaylor,

I'm interested in these old materials.

I went to IHS and they only list 5G (and then ask $US250).

As MIL-HDBK-5 is not out-of-print, can it be freely copied and circulated ? (not a lawyer)

If it can be, and if you've got the data, how much ?

 

[rerig]

Try the Gov't web site "ASSIST" for Rev's H & J.
Very large files.

http://assist2.daps.dla.mil/eAccess/index.cfm?ident_number=53876

Hope this link works. If not

http://assist2.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/

and type in "MIL-HDBK-5" in the Doc Id block.

 

[WKTaylor]

rb1957..

I Just checked with IHS... every version of MIL-HDBK-5 is available for download. This MAY be due to my company's account set-up. Since You stated You can ONLY get the -5G, I suspect a glitch somewhere since the last version was -5J with the MMPDS as follow-on. NOTE: the following versions are available, in-full, although download times for these LARGE *.pdf files can be very high:

MIL-HDBK-5, -5A, -5B, -5C, -5D, -5D, -5F, -5G, -5H, -5J & the FAA MMPDS [+varients with chg notices].

The older versions contain some really old specs/data... which are unavailable anywhere else, to my knowledge. I have been able to find materials/specs that are way-out-of-date... that would otherwise be lost due being lost in the trash-bin of time.

Regards, Wil Taylor

 

[rb1957]

thx wil,

i was on their unsubscribed page ...

 

[Nigel]

It is always available here along with a whole host of usefull FAA and related tech info. Enjoy.

http://155.178.136.203/webopac/search/SimpleSearch.asp

Nigel Waterhouse

http://www.canamaero.com

 

[Kenneth]

As detailed at the link in my post above, the current FAA plan is to begin charging for the handbook to help defray the costs of maintaining the docuement.

An excerpt: "Our goal is to start product sales with the next release of the handbook, MMPDS-02, by July 2005."