The Entitlement Generation 18

[controlnovice]

I'm seeing this a lot in our engineering co-op students.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/the_entitlement_generation

I'm trying to figure out when this generation started? I'm at the very tail end of GenX, but certainly don't feel entitled. Born '67.

 

[bigTomHanks]

I get the idea that controlnovice is just jealous of the younger generation. He reminds me of a guy who works here. Every time someone younger than him has to help him with somethings he goes off on this rant about how he has 25 !@#$%^&* years of experience. I'm always thinking to myself when he goes off on his rants: "why don't you go out and find a job that will pay you for your skills what you make here." Not to my surprise, nobody seems to agree with him on what his skills are worth(he has been on several job interviews with no success).

 

[BigH]

bigTomHanks - do as a friend of mine did to a foundation contractor when he said he had "25 years" of experience, etc. My friend's reply: "So, I guess you've been doing it wrong for 25 years! Sad."

 

[SomptingGuy]

Quoting my first ever personnel manger (HR manager for our American speakers): "Don't expect it to be fun every day. If it was we'd be selling f***ing tickets, not paying you!". Harsh maybe, but worth thinking about before moaing about yet another impossible deadline for yet another annoying customer.

 

[GregLocock]

I think thread731-128171 amply demonstrates that it is not a generational thing, since the main protagonist seems to think 17 years of engineering experience (oh and a prestigous university, let's not forget) makes him an authority.





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[HgTX]

It's gone. Is it worth sharing the highlights?

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376

 

[makeup]

I used to think that young people didn't want to work for a living and wanted respect before they had earned it.

But there again most of these guys have seen where working hard gets you. Lost pensions, fired at the flick of a switch and your assets repossessed to pay for old age. Not much to aspire for is there. I mean why on earth would they want to follow us. So who can blame them for having a F--- you attitude and no loyalty.

 

[Engineeeeeeeeer]

I worked for my first engineering position after graduating, loved the job and travelled to many different countries.
Small company, and due to this there was always a lot of work that 'had' to be completed, thus I would work a lot of O/T to finish it. At the time I didn't mind. I enjoyed the work and was young in my profession. I thought it was worth it, as investing now doing hard work would pay dividends in the long run. Years passed and nothing seemed to be changing, no pay rises, no bonuses and always being treated by the boss (along with all employees) as second class engineers. A sub-contractor said I was being ‘used’ by my employer, who was paying a relatively small salary, and not giving me anything else in return (training etc) Company ran into financial trouble and no-one was paid for a few months.

I then was forced into looking for a new job. Found one 2wks later and the Company is very different. No O/T work is expected and very rarely done, but when it is, it is time in lieu, and the salary is higher, treated better and offered training.

In summary, if you think no matter what your age, that you are being taken advantage of – GET OUT. There are far better companies out there.

I am in my thirties, and in hindsight, my old employer probably was taking advantage, but my inexperience let it happen. A high price for a lesson I will never forget.

 

[ruggedscot]

Met a guy I knew from school - seemed to be very well off could tell but the cut of the cloth and the watch he was wearing - bespoke, yeah this guy had arrived so i asked him how he managed it as when I remember he left school with nothing and he was bone lazy aswell....

I got some wood he told me and made a hut - sold this hut and with the money bought some more wood, got busy making more huts and sold them aswell, again went out and bought more wood and made some more huts, looking out at the Bently in the car park I asked him if that was all there was to getting to his position - more or less he replied. Oh and he bought a lottery ticket one afternoon.....


Yep life has its turns and dives. I would trust any company I worked for and I would be more interested in looking after myself and my wife. That is what matters at the bottom dollar. Home life and happiness. I worked for a company a while back and then it sort of went pearshaped, was in a vehicle accident while working overseas on a contract, I was dismissed for misuse of company property. Yep from that moment on I decided that number one is me - companies are pretty ruthless when it comes down to it.

Went to court through it and got a settlement out of it but Id rather go back and be the person I was before it happened than go through what I went through.

The heading of this being entitlement - I believe that you are only entitled to what you are prepared to get up and fight for.

Rugged

 

[ziggi]

I have already spoken of this in the "Opinion of Engineers" thread. But basically I agree with the previous post. I feel that we as engineers need to fight for ourselves and weed out the guys who are too weak to argue with their bosses. We have very intelligent people in our profession but unfortunately many of the smartest ones grew up as nerds and never learnt the necessary social skills to fight and argue for their share of the pie. I'm not one of those really smart ones, however I do argue and fight for my share and I feel that the entire profession is due more than it is being given right now. Doctors and lawyers make way more than we do, but if a lawyer or doctor screw up, one person's life is altered, if we screw up hundreds or thousands of lives could potentially be affected. And even if the blame is spread across a full engineering department of 10 people thats still about 10-1000 lives being affected by every engineer on every project.

 

[GregLocock]

"I feel that we as engineers need to fight for ourselves and weed out the guys who are too weak to argue with their bosses. "

Oh terrific. I'd rather weed out the 50% who are worse than average at /engineering/, I'll happily sort the bosses out for those who won't stick up for themselves.

And if I ever get to be your boss (no thanks), you can be damn sure I'll be checking your ability, not your assertiveness.




Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[NickelMet]

I agree whole-heartedly with you Greg. We should remove those "so-called" engineers from the workforce that cannot - or in some cases will not - do their profession. I have never once complained about a fellow engineer's passion for doing their work right, even if they are a bit timid. And I have removed engineers and technicians from areas they are totally incompetent in, no matter their verbal ability or backbone.

So Ziggi - in agreement with Greg - if I were your boss, your ability and passion better shine, because as for me, agressiveness and assertiveness don't come first with getting the task at hand completed.

Everyone else: does it seem to me only that Ziggi's post smacks true in the emotion of the title of this little discussion - 'the Entitlement Generation'??

~NiM

 

[Zapster]

I do not believe that people are entitled to anything. In contrast to ziggi’s opinion I think that engineers are overpaid in my geographical location. In fact most professions in my area are grossly overvalued. I live in the USA and not a week goes by that I look at the things we have and the opportunity that is available to us and I admit to myself that there is a significant imbalance between what we produce and what we consume. I understand that our lifestyle comes at a price and that we are not producing our fair share. The consequences of our actions are:

Reduced National Security
2nd and 3rd World workers that produce more than they consume
National Debt that my children will pay
Under-funded retirement programs that my children will pay
Damage to the environment that my children will have to correct

And because the above consequences are non-sustainable, we may go to war to ensure that people will get what they think they are entitled to.

 

[EddyC]

ziggi,

Kindly don't refer to your fellow engineers as "nerds". In addition, I get to meet all kinds of people who like to blow their own horns. I find this kind of thing offensive, as I come from a modest environment. 75% of the folks who like to blow their horns regularly really haven't done much in their lives. They're like an old car with a hole in the muffler (sounds fast, but isn't).

 

[BillPSU]

Zapster
You are such a blow hard and have no understanding about what is driving production from the US and why. The main reason is greed. Lower labor cost not lower ability or consumption. All of the technology which produces the products in the third world country came from developed countries. Someone in the developed countries saw the labor cost for production of a product and said I can make this cheaper in (name your country) than in (name your own country). I will build a plant and make it overseas and sell it for the same price giving me more money. It happened in Japan in the 80's and moved to Taiwan and Korea and now has moved to China and Mexico. In another 23-30 years it will end up in Africa or South America wherever the cheapest labor can be exploited.

How does where a product is produced or the use of energy impacting national security? National debt is driven by Congress and the President how much concern are they giving this issue? We received $600 per person refund and reduced taxes yet within 2 years we are experiencing a huge deficits. The social security money which should be set aside for future benefits is being used to reduce deficits. Put the blame squarely where it belongs on the Legilative and Executive branches of government.

 

[EddyC]

BillPSU,

Past administrations in the USA used to spend money they didn't have and then raise taxes afterward. The most recent administrations are giving money back and then cutting spending afterward. Both methodologies utilized the action-reaction method of achieving the goals of the particular administration in power. I won't bother to state which methodology I prefer, I merely offer this view as a means of clarification.

 

[NickelMet]

There are some things that a civilized being should be entitled to: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These, as defined by our forefathers are considered to be "certain unalienable rights". (It is in the Declaration of Independance, look it up.)

However, I would tend to agree that some things we are not entitled to. I was raised without want, but taught to temper my needs. I was raised on a 'protestant ethic', where the belief of hard work would provide for a good life. I was raised with morals and ethics, where such would raise my standard of living and allow me to hold my head high. Thus, I am not entitled to beg, borrow, and steal in order to live. I have a fit body and a sharp mind, I am entitled to pursue my strengths and desires in order to maintain a comfortable way of life. I am not entitled to another man's profitability, though my efforts may have afforded him that privilege. I am entitled to pursue other opprotunities that may bring me to a higher social and/or spiritual order. But, I am not entitled to drag my fellow man with me if I should fall.

Sound a bit idealistic? Yes, but then again, I am the eternal optimist.

Do I feel bad if I make more money than my peer that lives 1000-miles away? 2000-miles? in a 3rd world country? Not at all. As Zapster aludes to, geographical, socio-economic, and industry type positioning are all factors. And I believe in the choices I have made as to where, when, and why I work.

Will there be consequences? Yes, of course. Man is not infallible. Man in not uncorruptable. Man is no mistake-proof. Each decision we make will affect an outcome sometime, someplace, and somehow. When one realizes the true principle of cause and effect, looking at each action and analyzing it, one can come to the conclusion of utter hopelessness (pessimism) or willingness to accept/affect change (optimism). Only one of these looks to a brighter future...guess which one.

And yes, we live in a time in this country where we have excessive lifestyles, in part driven by the attitudes: "keeping up with the Jones'" and "bigger is better". Big meals, big cars, big houses, and unfortunately for most, big debts. The need for excess does affect other things (as Zapster mentioned). It is the misguided need for excess that can cause many types of conflict such as wars for resources and socio-economical wars. The perception of entitlement drives this also.

So here's the 6-billion dollar (or person) question: How do we stop it? Be realistic, there is no easy choice or answer. We should strive to understand the world around us and live within it as we were meant to. Think this means harmony? Wrong...order cannot exist without chaos. But order can make sense of chaos and even begin to tame it. We need to affect change, be optistimic, and strive for the best solutions. And, we can teach our children to do not only the same, but become better at it.

I look forward to the coming storm in the world. I look forward to it as an opportunity. The belief in entitlement to resources and such is going to drive us to a dark period, I don't think anyone will deny that. However, if we start looking beyond the 'me' and to the 'we', with the willpower we possess as a species, anything is possible. The light at the end is dim, but I believe it to be there.

Idealistic? Maybe, but I'll take my chances. I'll take my hard work, my knowledge, my work ethic, and my optimism as powerful force to enable me to surge forward, leaving the pettiness of entitlement belief in the wake. And hopefully, I can instill those facets into those around me so that we might all forge on ahead.

My 2-cents..

~NiM

 

[QCE]

Get out of the way here come the crazies with there blurry eyes and sandwich boards.

What are you guys talking about?

Blame the government, the end is near, the revolution has started. blah, blah, blah.

 

[rhodie]

1. Why should Americans feel guilt for what America is?
Ignore things, accept things, or change them. Self-loathing about it does nothing.

2. Thinking that you are under-valued or under-entitled is nothing new.

To contrast the feeling of the topic: Those retired persons that use US Social Security checks for Casino money or traveling money feel just as entitled to that check as much as the poor single parent who gets the same check to buy groceries and gov't cheese. After all, the kids these days "haven't paid in for 30 years" or "lived through the Cold War" or a multitude of other rationale.

3. Young people, especially, get a slanted perception of true self-worth from an early age. We heard all kinds of B.S. growing up about how "special" or "unique" we are, and how "expressing or individuality" is so important for us.

What an outright lie that is. The end result of that type of thinking is an anti-establishment, anti-nationalist, morally discrete, and ultimately selfish society.


I agree with NicketMet almost entirely. It's "Humanism", or "the belief that humanity always will seek rightness and equilibrium" is a folly that too many of us buy into and allow to shape our view of things.

 

[NeedAHoliday]

Okay, my basis:

1. These are my opinions, so feel free to disagree but do not attack. I like a debate, I'm not interested in pettiness.

2. I am in my "twentysomething's"

3. Entitlement is not a priviledge it is as the word suggest a legal term for the rights to benefits etc etc

4.

Generation X is a term used in demographics, the social sciences, and more broadly in popular culture. It is mostly related to the Western culture and demography and generally refers to persons born in the 1960s and 1970s, although the exact dates of birth defining this age demographic are highly debated. Born after baby boomers, it has also been described as a generation consisting of those people whose "teen years touched the 1980s", though many people that are considered part of the generation had their teenage years during the 1990s.

The term is popularly associated with the people born between 1961 and 1981. Another common description of Generation X includes within it those people who grew up in a period of transition (1945–1990) beginning with the end of World War II and the decline of colonial imperialism and ending with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War. Thus, the transition between colonialism and globalization is thought to separate the Baby Boomers from the Baby Busters, a sub-generation of Generation X made up of the earliest born members. There are some older Generation Xers who frown upon the classification of those born in 1980 or 1981 as being part of Generation X; these individuals often prefer to classify Generation X as those born between 1964 and 1979.

Therefore having defined the basis of the argument now let us examine the context and implications.

I find the notion that generation labelling us twentysomething populous as slack/lazy etc Gen Xers really rather amusing as it goes to show that the apple truelly does not fall far from the tree, I quote (from Univeristy of Washington Business School)

....Being labeled is, perhaps, a rite of passage for every crop of twentysomethings. In their day, baby boomers were rabble-rousing hippies, and Gen Xers were apathetic slackers.

Now, deserved or not, this latest generation is being pegged, too -- as one with shockingly high expectations for salary, job flexibility and duties but little willingness to take on grunt work or remain loyal to a company.

Could it be that in 20 years time I to will be whinging about the up and coming youth? Let's come back to that one.

Now to give some insight into my background. I am a young engineer by standards. I work for a great company that values its employees because the management level has the foresight to see that a companys success and future is based on its workforce. Do I have a big salary, probably is above average, I can't complain.

Do we Gen Xrs want it all? Yes, why not try!! Am I slack, no, I work 50+ hour weeks for a 40hr week salary without compensation, am I an idiot for doing this, no I get payed well because of this. Am I entitled to want the high income and benefits, Yes, do we deserve it?? That is up to your employer and yourself.

People complain about how we want it all now and haven't yet earnt it. Where do you think the young learn this trait??

The world has become more commercialised and less accomodating. Low socioeconomic levels struggle and get abused by coporation, more meat for the sausage machine. Parent's struggle and sacrifice to raise the children on the pretext of giving them a better future, and now that we stand up and ask for a better future, we are labelled,

"high expectations for salary, job flexibility and duties but little willingness to take on grunt work or remain loyal to a company."

Do no confuse committment with loyalty. I am committed to my company, they look after me so I look after them, this is the new order of loyalty, bred by the older generation into the present economic system.

Do not take this to mean that I support the slack and inept, this is not the case, I take pride in my work ethic and committment and in my ability.

I have racked up debt in my own name to get my education, not my parent's, they have done more than enough for me to take this on, I have worked hard and taken no holidays, have worked overtime... Do I epxect high salaries and flexibility for my life outside of work, Yes. I have worked for it, it is an entitlement not a priviledge, if my seniors can not get a salary like mine then look to yourself and what you may be lacking, not to me.

Back to the comment of "Could it be that in 20 years time I to will be whinging about the up and coming youth?", the answer is probably YES. I am only human after all. Will I remember to have the foresight to ask what it is I may be resentful of, I sincerely hope so.

Our generations are the same, we think the same way and want the same. The only difference is that we are not being governed by social stigma's or the shackles that bind older employees to scared or unable to increase there earning potential, and that we no longer let corporations use and abuse.

The world isn't nice, corporations generally don't give a hoot about your needs or your family's needs. It's up to the individual to get the most he can from his employer, I reckon go for it, there is no harm in trying.

Your Sincerely,

Generation X

....now, how to remove one's tongue from one's cheek.

 

[2dye4]

Getting paid what your worth.
Doing an honest days work.
Loyalty to employer or employee.
The "WORTH" of your profession.

These quaint ideas should be forgotten in this age where
the only value is "no value" or unbridled capitalism.
We are entering an economic era where we are encouraged
to believe in nothing but the free market solution to
everything. Every thing has its price and can be purchased.
I say Engineers should fully get on board and go about
milking their employers mercilessly when economic conditions
permit and then flipping burgers when the employers have
their turn.
Maybe we should save all that money we make in the boom
to sustain us through the lull and give us more pricing
power with employers.
Its time for engineers to get their self taught
Minor degree in Economics. And use this knowledge and
leverage greed to extract all that can be had from
Employers when you can.
It is not the way I prefer to see the world turn.

Ask yourself: Is complete unbridled capitalism the
best answear to all problems. Or at a certain degree
of usage does it begin to destroy cooperation among
fellow men and on average reduce societies living standards?