The Fading Prestige of Engineering 5

[Maui]

Here is a thought provoking article that I recently read:

http://www.linkedin.com/news?viewAr...&type=member&item=47996360&articleURL=http://

http://www.engineering-matters.com/...rlhash=7WNC&goback=.gde_36972_member_47996360

I was wondering if other engineers shared this writer's perspective. Has engineering gone downhill in terms of the prestige or respect associated with it over the last several decades? Your thoughts?

Maui

 

[IRstuff]

> Celebrities have existed for centuries, down to the installation of celebrity generals as emperors, so nothing new there hte pretige department

> Pervasiveness of technology just makes it even more apparent how little any given person knows about the technology at hand. What's fundamentally different is the people no longer think about the complexity, it's simply there, and it works until it doesn't.

> What is new is that more people can manipulate the technology. Even twenty years ago, game programming and writing apps belonged to a rarified class of programmers. Now, almost any teenager can whip together an app or a game. The people who can't are still in awe of those who can.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[TexasPwrEng]

I've only been out of school and in engineering for 2 years now, so I certainly don't have a true perception of engineering over the past several decades. But I've heard this question/debate before, and often wonder if the "engineering of old" is romanticized a bit. I would wager, along the lines of IRstuff's comment, that the modern consumer is typically more interested in pretty, magic boxes that let me do my banking, check my friends' status, and play "Angry Birds" than actually understanding the magic within that box. But I wonder how much different that really is than 30 years ago. Did people really care about the thought and knowledge it took to design a bridge, or were they just happy it to cross it?

When friends or acquaintances ask me what I do, many do seem impressed that I have a "real job" (their words) and respect both my career and what I'm able to do. I am not glorified, and we don't spend the evening discussing my work and what it takes to perform a sectionalizing study, but as far as occupations go, I am certainly respected.

 

[GregLocock]

Thirty years ago the professional mags were wittering on about pay and prestige. Not much has changed.

So long as the institutes are beholden to academia and senior management they'll never do anything to really improve the average engineer's pay and prestige.





Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[IRstuff]

But, they never can or will. Our entire standard of living is based on the affordability of the engineering that goes into the design of all toys and gadgets and electronics that we consume. If everything was double or triple the cost, the general population would be less likely to buy the stuff that we make.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[FeX32]

"Our entire standard of living is based on the affordability of the engineering that goes into the design of all toys and gadgets and electronics that we consume. If everything was double or triple the cost, the general population would be less likely to buy the stuff that we make. "

That's perfectly said. It is unfortunate for us but at the same time it's a good thing that we are doing for society (drastically improving the average persons way of living).

Although, there are some select industries that are not common that can/should/might pay more for their engineering.


Fe

 

[lz5pl]

According to me prestige of not only emgineering, but of the most professions which need some level of brains and years of study have been falled during the last century. Some 100 years ago typical engineer and doctor have been respected member of if not high society, but at least on top of middle class. Having a servant at home for helping of his wife have been quite common, and of course almost no one wife needed to work. I don't know how it have been in UK or USA, but in our country wives even added to their family also the title of husband, etc. wife of Eng. Ivanov called herself as Eng. Ivanova. It sounds funny for us now, but at that time it showed actually the status in the society.

Of course now the times are different. Entering the university nobody from future engineers or doctors expects that through his profesion he will be able even to be close to the life standard of some sportsmen or artist. Our profession lost it's magic in the eyes of the client.
100 years ago driving a car have been a respected profession which needed serious qualification. Therefore designing and building of a car have been considered like combination of art and science which only very talented engineers can have. Now everybody can drive a car, but most of the people have only slight idea what makes the car moving. May be because of that now design and building of car is not considered like something exeptional. On motor shows external design of the new models is the first point, because people are more interested in fashionable look of car's body, number of air bags and comfort of seats rather than of efficiency of engine or brakes. And the horly rate of repairing service is near to that of registered engineer. I thought it is only here in former Eastern block countries,but friend of mine who works from 15 years for Microsoft in the USA says me it is the same there too.

When we discuss with colleagues this matter I often say that the person who will invent vaccine against AIDS or controlled thermonuclear reaction cannot expect such popularity as sports star or millions dollars royalties as movie stars for a single movie. It is pitty, but that's the life.

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

 

[oldfieldguy]

One more time: Go read Rudyard Kipling's "Sons of Martha"

excerpt:

It is their care in all the ages to take the buffet and cushion the shock.
It is their care that the gear engages; it is their care that the switches lock.
It is their care that the wheels run truly; it is their care to embark and entrain,
Tally, transport, and deliver duly the Sons of Mary by land and main.

old field guy

 

[GregLocock]

I'd rather take my career advice from Gilbert and Sullivan

"Work at your desk and never go to sea,
and you'll end up as ruler of the Queen's navy"

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[rmw]

I kind of scanned the article.

When I saw the title of the thread, I thought to myself, 'what prestige?' I have never thought that engineering was a prestigeous field. When people list the "prestigeous" professions, Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, and continue past that, when are the engineers listed? From my experience almost never.

If a real estate agent were touring a prospect through your neighborhood and pointing out "oh, a Doctor lives there, a Lawyer lives there, a...." do you think he/she would say "an engineer lives there?" I doubt it.

If you state that you are an engineer a few people might acknowledge that you are in a field where you have completed a rigerous education and have to use your brain but most people are like the Governor of a southern (USA) state once that was wishing everyone well at a University graduation and after wishing that the Doctors and Nurses would all get a new hospital to work in, wished on the engineers that they would all get a new train to drive. True story.

Our salaries stay low compared to the prestigeous professionals because we do what we do because we like it, not because it is lucrative. Lawyers get into politics and make the laws so that they benefit Lawyers. Doctors, well, there is God and then there are Doctors (according to most of them). But when you need a Doctor, do you go to an Accountant?

In engineering, (and I am not trying to start a food fight here) you don't even have to be an engineer to be an engineer. There are many non-degreed engineers with the job title of engineer. There are many non-engineers with the title of engineer. The maintenance men in the building I work in are "building engineers". I don't think some of them can even write. (Overstatement with tongue in cheek.) But if they can write, I doubt that they can spell engineer.

I worked for a British company once and everyone that worked there in any capacity above secretary was an engineer of some type. It just meant that they handled some type of technical task - parts engineer, tendering engineer, sales engineer, marketing engineer, service engineer, etc. I doubt there were more than a couple of university engineering educations in the whole bunch.

Until we in the profession police ourselves and lean on legislatures to limit the use of the title "engineer" (not to be confused with the title of "Professional Engineer" - a totally different thread) to those that have paid the dues and are actually educated and/or experienced as engineers we will fall short in the prestige category IMHO.

Have you ever heard of a Doctor that wasn't a real doctor? Well, not for long anyway. Have you ever heard of an Attorney that wasn't registered with the Bar, a public accountant that wasn't certified? Those professions control who can throw around the title of the profession and present themselves as such.

Can you imagine the maintenance guys at a hospital being referred to as the "building Doctors"? The X-ray Technicians as the X-Ray Doctors? The ambulance drivers as the "ambulance doctors?"

We on the other hand are content to crunch our numbers and not care if the guy in the next desk ever went to college or not if he can do the work and is competent. And I have met my share of non-degreed engineers who were craker jack engineers in the specialty area where they had their experience.

Even this site which is supposed to be for engineering professionals is full of members who don't come anywhere near qualifying as even a building engineer, much less a degreed earned, experienced, functioning engineer.

I think we have a long way to go before we can claim any prestige. I doubt we will ever get there. We as a group are just not that political.

And that said, I don't care. I do what I do because I like it and not for prestige. Let the Doctors and Lawyers bask in the glow of their prestige. (And get the emergency calls in the middle of the night.)

My opinion only. And I'm kind of new to the business, I have only been an engineer for a little more than 40 years now.

rmw

 

[FeX32]

OMG!
Instead of doing something about it we are here bitching on sites....I am not pointing fingers but I always thought of engineering as prestigious. (and always will). And I know many people that feel the same.
There are many points to back me up like the fact that only the best students are supposed to get through engineering ect...I am not interested in listing all of them here as I have not the time....back to writing autonomous robot path planning algorithms..."silently" as the silent profession lets me.


Fe

 

[FeX32]

"And that said, I don't care. I do what I do because I like it and not for prestige. Let the Doctors and Lawyers bask in the glow of their prestige. (And get the emergency calls in the middle of the night.)

My opinion only. And I'm kind of new to the business, I have only been an engineer for a little more than 40 years now."

I'm ok with this. It is good way to see it.


Fe

 

[plasgears]

'Sons of Martha' [A.J. Fredrich] is the title of a book in the ASCE library that serves as an excellent reader on CE works and the stalwart players along the way. Highly recommended. All these people were 10 ft tall.

 

[moltenmetal]

Engineering was already a commodity several decades ago.

50-60+ years ago, engineering was a profession, commanding a salary equal to or greater than that of the average doctor, and 30% more than that of the average lawyer.

How could that be? There were fewer engineers than there was demand for their services, and inadequate capacity to train more. The reverse is true now, to the extreme.

Engineering is more vital to society and our economy than it has ever been. And as a career, it's still a good gig for some, especially those who have enough business savvy and good fortune to escape being mere wage slaves. But 2/3 of engineering grads in Canada vote with their feet, either leaving the profession or never entering it in the first place.

Shockingly, we still have engineers trying to recruit people into our profession, as if it's still the 1950s and engineering is the next big thing.

 

[lacajun]

Because of environmentalism I've had people tell me engineers are the reason for all of our problems. If it wasn't for engineers, we would be OK. They fail to think of the demand for things that make their lives easier or more enjoyable. Lost some prestige? Yes, indeed.

 

[Metalhead97]

I think unless you are developing something new and useful your not an engineer. Particularly in Materials Engineering, there are jobs that don't involve any sort of product development where a materials engineer will serve as a "materials expert", and perform materials selection/failure analysis to support other area of the company. Those are important jobs, but your not directly creating anything. I think our society still respects the creators of new and useful things. The problem is that not all engineers create.

 

[FeX32]

"creators of new and useful things"
hmm....we are talking engineering yes...but this can easily stir up another controversy that I will not mention in detail. (R&D ect..)


Fe

 

[lacajun]

I think unless you are developing something new and useful your not an engineer.

Engineering goes way beyond developing something new and useful all the time. I can't imagine many of the plants around the globe working good without engineers helping in maintenance, reliability, new projects, etc. Those are complex and dynamic places, where engineers can learn and contribute a lot.

 

[mauricestoker]

If Rodney Dangerfield could live without respect, so can I.

 

[DannyGlover]

Elsewhere like in China or India I am given the impression that the profession still has much prestige.