The Future of CADD Drafters 12

[bridgebuster]

I'm curious about drafting policies in other firms/offices. Where I work, the department has a little more than three engineers per drafter. We also have two drafting trainees as part of a government contract requirement.

Our department policy is that engineers shouldn't do any drafting. This is primarily a utilization issue, although there are older people like me who are not well-versed in CADD. Our drafters do quality work and they're well paid - about the same as an engineer with 10 years experience. The trainees are paid a little more than half of an entry level engineer.

Over the next 10 years +/- I don't see much of a future for CADD drafters. In another office I worked in, the younger engineers did their own drafting. The one or two drafters we had typically worked with those not fluent in CADD or did the clean-up work on the drawings. As people like me retire there's going to be less of a demand for drafters. The way I see it, either the majority of our higher paid drafters will be let go and/or the entry level CADD drafters will never earn anything close to what the experienced people earn.

 

[MusicEngineer]

I work at a company where we have 8 engineers (including quality engineer and team lead) and only 2 designers. I do most of my complex modelling by myself (including construction drawings) and only involve the designers when I am nearing a deadline and there are still lots of details to take care of.
All of the young engineers in the company are proficient CAD users. One of the senior engineers also has exceptional CAD skills. The designers mainly help the engineers that do not know CAD well.

 

[jgailla]

At my last job, we had tracers who were called designers. They were incapable or unwilling to do anything that wasn't marked in red pencil on a sheet of paper. On one project, I drew a sewer line with manholes down the middle of a street, assuming that the tracer would place them on the centerline. Nope, he painstakingly offset each manhole and pipe segment a minute amount to match my red pencil line drawn not exactly straight.
There's no reason to pay guys like that. I eventually got fed up and just did all my own CAD.

 

[GregLocock]

OTOH I had an otherwise excellent CAD guy who would take my carefully engineered solid models and would then round the dimensions off when he issued the drawings 'to make them easier to machine'.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[ajack1]

I think the two examples above just show what happens with poor communication rather than a bad drafter/ CAD operator.

In both cases the operator did what they felt was right, be that following the drawing to the letter as this had been done like this for a reason, or changing things to round figures as the original model had been done without much care. Obviously they were both wrong but for completely opposite reasons.

If CAD operators are a dying breed well that probably depends on what field of engineering you work in and how big the company is.

I can now sit at my PC and book airline tickets or hotels, do design reviews via a screen share with someone in a different country, program a machine that I am miles away from, do my accounts and transfer money around and endless other tasks that would have been unthinkable when I started out, or even twenty years ago, where we will be in fifteen years time when I retire I have no idea.

 

[GregLocock]

I agrree, and that's why i put the example up, but of course in this day it is no more difficult to machine 74.7+/-0.2 than 75.0 +/-0.2

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[ajack1]

I am not sure it ever was more difficult to machine 74.7 rather than 75.0, although it could be argued the worse case is when you work on say the upper and lower limits of a micrometer for example, as you would need to use two micrometers to produce the part.

However it still seems “right” to use round numbers unless there is a good reason not to.

 

[jgailla]

ajack1,
I never thought about it as a communication issue. It just seems obvious to me to make bends 90 degrees instead of 89, run things in straight lines, etc. I did have someone ask me today, only partly tongue in cheek, if I'd ever been tested for Asbergers (sp).
Maybe I'm too hard on other people.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Not that long ago, I designed a show display based on an engine that was probably metric. We contracted construction of the core, a somewhat complex plywood box, to a local carpenter.

I got to re-do the CAD model of the box overnight, adjusting all dimensions to eighths of an inch, because the carpenter just flat refused (rightly so in retrospect) to work to decimal inch or metric dimensions.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[TomDOT]

If the carpenter is tooled to measure in eighths.... yep.

 

[JohnRBaker]

It has to do with the limitation of the tools which are used:

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[berkshire]

Hey John,
That rule had 1/16ths on the other side, he could have worked to those.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[JohnRBaker]

Before I joined my current company (actually a long series of companies which has developed and marketed the CAD/CAE/CAM software Unigraphics/NX) I worked 14 years as a Machine Designer for a larger manufacturer of capital food and chemical processing equipment. Most of the structures of these machines were welded from rolled steel shapes (angles and channels). Many of the approaches used to build-up these frameworks were not all that different than what one might find on a construction site where a house was being built (many of our machines were larger than a typical 3-bedroom home). And as a result of that we utilized a hybrid of Engineering and Architectural drafting standards where linear dimensions on our Drawings, if they were less than 72", would be in fractional Inches, while all dimensions over 72" were in Feet & Inches. When I first started working there I had never heard of this practice (it was never mentioned during my 4 years of Engineering school) and when I asked why things were done this way, it was explained to me that a 'Carpenters Rule' only goes up to 72" and for any measurement longer than that, a 'Tape Measure' was used.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[Erdbau]

Two stories similar to jgailla:

1. I was in a rush and in on markup drew a bunch of freehand lines seemed to me to be pretty straight, and in context of the drawing were obviously (even to a drafter) supposed to be straight. I got the drawing back with wavy lines. I went back to the drafter and asked him to make them straight lines, and he flipped out because he spent an hour and a half digitizing the lines.

2. Different drafter: I put a note on the drawing in big letters "Dimension all lines marked "DIM"". I get the drawing back with 35 leaders pointing the to the lines I wanted dimensioned, all labelled "DIM".

Now, as ajack said, these may be examples of poor communication on my part, but they also hint at a lack of common sense on the drafters' part. "These lines aren't straight. Do you really want me to take the time to digitize them?" A 10 second phone call avoids 1.5 hours of unnecessary work. Unfortunately, with the way our workflow works, I don't have the opportunity to have a 10-miunte conversation with a drafter and say "this is what I want." I found eventually that I spent longer on markups trying to avoid comically literal interpretations of my notes than it would actually take to make the changes myself or give them to another engineer that understands both CAD and the message that the drawing is intended to convey. Most of our junior engineering staff has taken to doing their own drafting for similar reasons.

As for from-scratch sketches of details, I can draw 2 to 3 times faster on CAD than I can on paper (of enough quality to be draftable). Why would I put it on paper and then have a drafter put it into CAD?

The link below is a horrific example of blindly following a "markup" (i.e., email order form). The rest of the Cakewrecks site is pretty funny, too.

http://www.cakewrecks.com/home/2008/6/2/proof-that-computers-will-never-rule-the-world.html

 

[ilovechickens]

In my opinion engineers are engineers and draftees are draftees. Sadly over time it has been assumed anyone who can open a computer and start up windows is a 'draftee'. I myself trained as a draftee on the board, then transitioned to CAD before studying to become an engineer. I never ever regret my drafting background, the draftees we do have can not bulsh** me because they know I have a drafting background. A draftee who knows what they are doing is as rear as hensteeth in my opinion and in our company the experienced drafting staff earn the same as the senior engineers. I am happy to wotk out the basic design in cad and then pass it over to the drafting staff to turn into something real.

If you can find a decent draftee they really are worth their weight in gold. Sadly most draftees are just computer operators these days and seem to have no professional training at all. You used to have to do an apprenticeship to become a draftee, now all people think you need is a computer program and a printer.

 

[behindpropellers]

Interesting reading.

I started with Autocad making drawings to get parts made. Eventually I started designing parts and assemblies in Solidworks. After I could do those good I started learning how to make stuff on a CNC mill. Thats where the real education started. Making the stuff you design. Being able to learn the manufacturing process has made me 5X the engineer I was before.

I see no reason for a drafter in today's world. Maybe in the civil world.

Tim

 

[berkshire]

behindpropellers (Aeronautics)

The original purpose of the drafter was to make the engineer more productive. As was the secretary and or the typist.
The personal computer changed that, it has supplanted a lot of those occupations.

Now a written document can be done in a typing program on a computer, Word for windows, WordStar, WordPerfect and many others.
Spreadsheet programs and math programs have taken away hours of scribbling on scratch pads looking up Logs and Antilogs or pulling the handle on a 10 key calculator
Drawings can be done in any number of drawing programs. Including the two you mention, Auto Cad and Solidworks. There are discussion groups on this forum for at least 20 drawing and modeling programs maybe more.
Engineers and other technicians have learned to use these programs effectively. The ability of the engineer to produce a document or string of code that can produce a finished component right the first time will improve over the years, as new computer programs come along to take the grunt work out of it.
In the same manner that I never learned to type in school, it was considered unnecessary because that was a typists job that girls did,
Now kids who cannot type on a computer keyboard or at least text by the time they are 8 years old are very few and far between.
Also a visit to the Maker Faire at various sites around the country will scare the hell out of you, when you see 8 and 9 year old kids modeling 3D parts on a computer then printing those same parts out on 3D printers. The question then becomes why I need an engineer if I can do it myself.


"A free people ought not only be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
-George Washington, President of the United States----

 

[behindpropellers]

Now kids who cannot type on a computer keyboard or at least text by the time they are 8 years old are very few and far between.
Also a visit to the Maker Faire at various sites around the country will scare the hell out of you, when you see 8 and 9 year old kids modeling 3D parts on a computer then printing those same parts out on 3D printers. The question then becomes why I need an engineer if I can do it myself.

True.

There is a big difference between being able to draw a nice picture (model) in the computer and press "Print" than make it so it functions correctly and is manufacturable. I guess this is why "Engineers" will always be needed.

Tim

 

[berkshire]

behindpropellers (Aeronautics)
If a part is printed on a 3D printer, it is manufactured, that is just one way of making it.
You have a part you can hold in your hand, assemble into other parts, or just use.
B.E.

"A free people ought not only be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
-George Washington, President of the United States----

 

[bridgebuster]

Sadly most draftees are just computer operators these days and seem to have no professional training at all. You used to have to do an apprenticeship to become a draftee, now all people think you need is a computer program and a printer.

Unfortunately this describes one of our trainees. I suggested that he invest time in a course on mechanical drawing; after 7 months he still has no concept of how one view relates to another.

 

[ewh]

It is true that drafters are a dying breed. That said, I have rarely seen a drawing done by an engineer that would get by what were known as checkers without several reiterations. I have seen drawings done by engineers where 3rd angle projection wasn't even understood, much less basic ASME Y14.5. While they may not be around for much longer, a proper drawing consists of more than some dimensions spread across a few views.
I agree that the purpose of drafters/designers was to increase the efficiency of the engineers. As a designer, I take pride in receiving an engineers input and design requirements and providing him with complete, accurate, finished drawings and models. Accomplishing this takes time, knowledge, effort and communication. Having me do it allows him to properly manage the other myriad tasks that have to get done. If he were to do the drawings/models on his own the result, while it may work, would often not be as robust because he would be spread too thin to make the deadlines imposed to make it so. This leads to numerous changes as the omissions/mistakes are discovered, and, depending on the industry involved, these changes can be quite expensive, even the simpler ones.

An engineering student should not be allowed to use a CAD program without at least a basic understanding of how to create a proper drawing.

The future that John points out is getting closer every day, but it will still be awhile before all industries accept PMI. There will still be a demand for efficient designers/modelers to create the files.
Everything is a business model, and time is money.

“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV