The good news about windfarms 3

[marks1080]

Cranky - that is what I tell people who ask.

When the wind power fad caught on here in Ontario a few years ago a lot of farmers were approached by developers to put up turbines on their land. Of course the famers were given business cases that quoted 100% of the nameplate power output and they bought in. I think everyone in this situation lost a lot of money, as they were the ones who paid for the set-up hoping to recoup the cost from the power they sold to the grid.

Of course the developers made off with stuffed pockets.

 

[BigInch]

marks1080,
The 20% is the "capacity factor" and that X rated_capacity is supposedly what is actually generated over a year's time.

As explained here,

http://www.aweo.org/windtechnology.html

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[BigInch]

But the actual data farther down indicates the wind capacity factor for 2004 was really only 0.127

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[cranky108]

On the other hand I have seen farmers who leased there land to wind developers and made good money for it. However I wonder who will take these things down after 15 or 20 years.

I won't denigh some wind power makes since, but most of what they are installing now is a waste of money.

For remote power systems it might be a good idea (like solar panels in space).

 

[BigInch]

Its good somebody can make some money at it, unfortunately it appears to be at the expense of their neighbors, if not the taxpayers as a whole. Maybe they should share their good fortune with the town and divide up the money they receive with the folks that live within hearing distance, or sight.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[cranky108]

There really wasen't that many houses where these were located.

I also noticed they were very careful to avoid the sun-flash factor on houses (makes people buy guns).

The land had little value except for grazing, so the wind farm was welcome. They also paid the local schools, the value of taxes avoided. And during construction, they rented almost every vacant house for 15 miles.

Like the smell of money, people will become accustom to the sound of money (why does money always smell bad).

 

[berkshire]

One question that has always intrigued me.
If you have all these windmills generating power, where do, you get, the spinning reserve from, when the wind drops?
B.E.

 

[GregLocock]

Hydro if you are lucky, gas turbines if not. Good innit?

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[BigInch]

I've seen some proposals to install large fly-wheels (another parasitic load), which would continue to power the grid after the wind fails just long enough to allow time to bring other generators up to speed. I don't know if they have actually been employed anywhere yet.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[dpc]

If you're in Europe, the spinning reserve comes from French nuclear power plants.

 

[jmw]

Ah, but not always.
This summer, instead of the UK drawing on France to make up for a shortfall in domestic supply, the unusual situation of Britain exporting electricity to France occurred.
Most of Frances Nuclear power stations are on rivers (the UK's are on the coast) and the hot dry summer meant river flows were a bit too low.
So, if we are to believe the warmists (which from today looks less likely) then this could be the trend of the future and not oly should the UK not look to France for buffering but may even have to supply France as well.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[BigInch]

jmw, That's an interesting prediction.

dpc, Spain has relatively little transport capacity to/from EU. They say its because of the Pyrenes Mountains, but I suspect its really because the Spanish utilities could never think of facing the competition from French nuclear power.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[dpc]

Or they can stock the rivers with largemouth bass instead of trout?

 

[BigInch]

Ya. Probably the largemouth bass that eat trout.

Largemouths live in warmer lakes.
Trout live in cooler rivers.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[BigInch]

It seems to be common to use a weibull distribution to approximate wind power production, but I've recently seen some example power calculations made using that method and the average month's windspeed that calculated produced power at almost 2X what using the average hourly wind speeds would suggest. The weibull distributions are very dependent on the assumed curve shape factor. WT manufacturers also make estimated output power using a shape factor of 2. When I checked the assumed shape factor used at that location against the actual hourly windspeed data, the factor used was a very poor choice.

Another link showing unfavorable large scale wind turbine economics, but noting that the production tax credit is enough to pay for the generators alone within 10 years.

http://mb-soft.com/public/wind7.html

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[mechanic6]

seems that windmills are a hot topic nearly everywhere.
i really don't think that they are that ineffective,as there are thousands in use,surely there can't be that many stupid people,companies,governments.(i'm an optimist)

am aware of tax subsidies,i think that results in some inappropriate installations.

they do have their place in a mixed source power grid.

M6

 

[jmw]

mechanic6,
I think the Dutch experience (referred to in the report) is the best answer to this.
They have had enough.
19% rated capacity turns out to be about 3% actual and costs way to much plus they have to dump it at way below cost into other markets.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[mauricestoker]

Windmills are pretty effective for driving pumps, as I've been in a couple that have run for hundreds of years. Fortunately, with "green" mentality, we can now use windmills to generate power to run electric pumps.

 

[cranky108]

Would you not use windmills for milling grain? And use windpumps for pumping water, and wind generators for generating electricity. Or just call all of them wind machines?

You can also use wind machines to compress air.

 

[mauricestoker]

I've heard the same discussion, it usually breaks down when you get to "windbreaker"