The materials cost of different steels 13

[szzrguy]

I'm attempting to discover the materials cost for certain types of cutlery steels used in the manufacturing of hair cutting scissors.
Scissor prices can very considerably ($25-$1000),I would like to find out why.
When I look at the small percentages of each ingredient listed to make up a particular grade of steel, say,440C,then compare that to AISI type 314,they share a lot of the same ingredients,varied a little by their percentage amounts and the 314 has 19-22 % NI,where is it that the HUGE price difference come in for a scissor made from AISI 314 compared to the 440C, especially when you are talking about a tool weighing less than 2 oz.
Thanks for your help.
Szzorguy

 

[tbuelna]

szzrguy-

If you look a little closer, there is quite a big difference in the chemistry of 440C and 314. 440C is martensitic and 314 is austenitic, which means that unlike 314 cres, 440C can be hardened by heat treatment.

440C is commonly used for bearings, which means its quality is also more tightly controlled than 314 cres. That would likely account for some of the cost differences you see.

Hope that helps.
Terry

 

[TVP]

Szzorguy,

The following document from AK Steel shows typical prices for mill quantities of various stainless steels.

http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/StainlessSteelPriceList.pdf

AK Steel does not manufacture rod/bar/wire products, so there is no information on 440C, but you can get an idea of what drives alloy cost. As tbuelna mentioned, additional processing is required to make bearing grade material like 440C, and this adds to the cost. However, even with vacuum melting and other costly processes, you cannot explain the difference between $25 and $1000. There will be many other factors that explain that difference such as the following:

country of manufacture
number of scissors manufactured (annually, monthly, per lot, etc.)
manufacturing process (hot forging, machining, grinding, etc.)
marketing and advertising

 

[rmw]

Isnt that price list a little old?

rmw

PS: that isn't a smart aleck answer. If the price list is valid or if there is an index or something to get it to current prices, I'd be vitally interested in finding that out, or where something current can be found.

 

[ornerynorsk]

As to the OP's original question, material cost has (almost)nothing to do with a price range from 25 to 1000. It is simply perceived or implied quality, branding status, etc. It's a marketing thing, not a manufacturing thing. One can charge what the market will bear.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[EdStainless]

In many cases when you start making a part out of a better material (harder, stronger, tougher, cleaner....) your processes are more difficult and demanding.
Usually manufacturing costs many time what the material is worth.
In cheap scissors they stamp the blades out. This is fast and low cost.
The best products are hot forged, machined, heat treated, and ground.
The ratio of material cost may be 1:5, but the ratio of processing costs may be 1:50.
My hunch is that $25 ones actually cost about $5 for material and manufacturing.
For really well made ones that total cost may be $100.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Plymouth Tube

 

[Wrenchbender]

Agree with above. Raw material costs should not be too significant. Yes, nickel is an expensive alloy addition. (Some steel mills actually keep their bulk nickel locked up.) Its labor, inspection, and customized cutlery manufacturing that you're paying the big bucks for. I would go with 440C as a very good general purpose material. Keep them clean after use and any 440 scissors should last for decades. On the other hand the high nickel alloys are more corrosion resisitant, and that might be desireable for continuous contact with the various liquids used in the tonsorial arts.

 

[dgallup]

The raw material costs are only a small percentage of the cost to produce an object. Some of the very high end cutlery steels used in knives are very difficult to work with (CPM S60V, ZDP 189). A few tenths of a percent more carbon makes a big difference in steel. Also additions of vanadium, molybdenum, etc in small concentrations make a big difference in steel properties. Some of these high end steels are impossible to blank, hard to machine and may not polish well. So there may be additional manufacturing cost. However, after a certain point you are surely paying a big premium for branding, marketing, etc.

I don't know anything about the scissor market, but I'm surprised anybody would make a scissor out of 314, let alone pay a huge premium for one. 314 is designed for high temperature applications, hardly a requirement for cutting hair. I would expect such a soft material to make a poor scissor. Do they have exotic PVD surface treatments like DLC to give them some edge holding capability? That would add some processing cost but not a lot.

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[racookpe1978]

Assume you have a limited production run of the high-priced scissors, and a months-long stamping run of the cheap scissors.

Another factor is the shutdown-cooldown/cleanout (of the original metal) -> startup-melting/mixing time/pouring time (of the new metal) -> shutdown-cooldown/cleanout (of the new metal) -> startup-melting/mixing time/pouring time (of the original metal)

The changeover from original metal to high-end metal and back is very, very high if your supplier needs to use one furnace. If not, then the second metal become even higher priced. The waste involved -in a continuous use furnace that is switched over from to the other and back - has to be charged to the higher-end product as well.

Add a few inspection and reject charges for the higher-end product? People costs go way up.

 

[TVP]

rmw,

AK Steel uses the same old price list as the starting point, and maintains a separate document with the latest surcharges. Here is their most recent (Feb 2012):

http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/surcharges/2012_02_Surch.pdf

 

[szzrguy]

Thanks for all of your answers,I appreciate the in site.
Most of the scissors I sell are made from 440C and they are forged,most come from Japan,and they wholesale for between $75-$200.
Also,many are said to be of Cobalt-Molybdenum stainless.The latest these days are advertised as being made from V10 alloy and or SUS314.These can wholesale between $200-$500.
When I see the price difference at the Wholesale level,I'm not sure if I'm being taken advantaged of or,do the material costs and machining really reflect this inflated cost.
Do these steels really differ in price that much and why?
Thanks,
Szrrguy

 

[rmw]

TVP,

That star was from me; Thanks.

rmw

 

[tbuelna]

szzrguy,

As the others noted, the difference in raw material cost is not likely what drives your particular part price, since there is not much material needed. Most of the part cost is likely processing.

Take a look at the attached data sheet from Latrobe Steel for their BG42 alloy, which is a specialty stainless steel for cutlery. It gives a good description of the numerous heat treatment processing steps needed to get the best properties from the material.

Hope that helps.
Terry

 

[ornerynorsk]

Szzrguy, does the market bear what you are selling? Do you have selling advantages over less costly alternatives, such as how long it holds an edge, the general fit and finish? Does the brand name portray a very high perceived quality/value? Are you, in fact, getting much higher quality than if you were buying a scissor of half the price?

I would suppose you could go to any reputable cutlery factory with a good quality management system in place and specify precisely what you want, including your own unique branding, steel type, etc, and save considerable money, if the volume warrants it.

There are enough high performance tool steels available as stock without having to go to the mill and have them run batch lot for you. It's not just tthe steels, it's the coatings that may be deposited on them, as well. Food for thought, just my 2 cents.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[dgallup]

I'm still questioning why anyone would use 314 for a cutting tool. It seems an exceedingly poor choice. There must be some reason beyond cutting ability. Can you provide a link to such an item?

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[dgallup]

I did a little googling and found that the alloy in question is NOT AISI 314 or SUS314 but Hitachi ATS-314, a proprietary cutlery steel for forging. I've not found the composition but I think it is safe to assume it's similar to the ATS-34 used by many high end knife makers. I saw one claim of "highest amounts of Cobalt, Vanadium & Titanium" in a cutlery steel.

In this case, since the scissors in question are forged (and at these prices one assumes low production volumes) then you are indeed paying a lot for the tooling and subsequent hand working to finish the scissor to the high level of ergonomic fit and cutting function.



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[tomwalz]

I get a soda, fries and a burger at the local joint for maybe $10 - $12. About 50% more than McDonald's.

At the local joint the burgers are hand formed and cooked the way I want them. The lettuce and tomato are fresh. The fries are hot and firm on the outside and soft on the inside. The soda comes in a bottomless glass.

Eating at McDonalds is fueling and they do a good job on cheap and fast.

On the other hand, take a hand formed, thick, juicy burger in a bun that was toasted on a grill. Add fresh, crisp vegetables. Add maybe a couple kinds of cheese; Cheddar for its richness and Swiss for a little tang. Fresh grilled, thick, premium bacon is also available. Include some hot french fries that have been out of the fryer for less than a minute. Garnish with some tangy, crispy, slightly bitey dill pickle chips and that is lunch.

The same thing goes on with scissors and other tools.


Thomas J. Walz
Carbide Processors, Inc.

http://www.carbideprocessors.com

Good engineering starts with a Grainger Catalog.

 

[metengr]

Well done, tomwalz!