The metric system of units is best !!!

[bertyboy]

The old imperial system of units which we British discarded in favour of the SI ( metric ) system of units, was a total joke. In hindsight I can believe that we British invented such a stupid system, it could only have happened in Britain !. If someone was simple, and completely drunk, they couldn't come up with a more stupid system.
However I can't believe that you Americans are still using it !
I am old enough to have experienced both systems during my life, as we in Britain changed over to the metric system gradually from 1970 on, this change started with the change of our money, called decimalisation.
The last remnants of the old system are still being eroded away today, as we still measure petrol in gallons, beer in pints, and buy meat in pounds. But I suspect in another 10 years it will completely disappear. Although miles may never disappear !
Have there been any suggetions or moves within the US, to drop the ridiculous Imperial system and replace it, with the sensible, and logical metric system. A system that most of the world has been smart enough to have adopted ?

 

[TheBlacksmith]

Despite a big effort in the '70's, printing car speedometers with both mph and kph and selling soda in liters, the metric system has been a huge flop in the US. Come to think about it, just about everything has both type of measurement on it. How much does that cost? The public doesn't want it and our government is generally afraid they won't get reelected if they impose something on us. So I guess we'll continue to use both. At least we report our stock market prices in dollars and cents now, instead of eighths.

Blacksmith

 

[JAE]

Much of the U.S. Transportation system (specifically the individual state Depts. of Transp.) were all heading toward the metric system in all their highway and bridge plans.

Now, many of them are actually retreating back to the "English" system. The GSA (General Services Administration) that is in charge of most Federal building projects, the Corps of Engineers, and many other Fed. agencies are still using metric.

The problem in the U.S. is that it is so embedded in our culture that changing over will be a long, drawn out process....maybe taking decades. Simply mandating it is very difficult.

The reinforcing bar manufacturers have actually sidestepped the process by creating "metric" rebar that is actually the original "English" sizes, just with metric names.

Personnally, I really don't care which way we go, as long as I have access to the same materials, specifications, data sheets, building codes, design guides, etc. in metric format. Many participants in the building industry have moved this way (expansion anchors, metal decking, steel joists, etc.) but many have not.

Finally, the other concern I have (personally) is the loss of that "gut feeling" you get in design when you just know that a 1/2" thick plate isn't adequate and your calculations prove you right. With metric, I would need some time to adjust and re-acquire that "gut feeling" about my designs and that period of time scares me a bit.

 

[DanTex]

Actually, the US has been trying for quite a while to convert to metric. However, it is not an easy conversion. For business, it is expensive. For individuals, such conversions are always confusing and take some time to digest. That, I'm willing to bet, is why you're still in the process of converting in Britain.

The US government and many US companies are trying to convert. A major part of the reason why the US hasn't successfully implemented wide-scale conversion yet is very simple to understand. The US is very large. To put it simply, the larger the country, the more difficult the conversion ( both physically, mentally and monetarily ). To date, most businesses haven't had sufficient "monetary" reasons to seriously consider spending more money on converting. And, as we all know... it is ALWAYS about money ( don't believe anyone who says otherwise ).

Note however, that the conversion process IS TAKING PLACE here. It is just very gradual. I believe our auto industry has converted as have several other industries. I work with the California Dept of Transportation. We converted several years back. Our problem here is that most of our design manuals and software are still in Imperial units. . Thus... we do a lot of our work in Imperial and convert over. Though doing it this way is a pain in the butt... I think it has some advanatages. It allows us to get a gradual feel for the different unit system. Additional, most of the contractors who build the bridges we design wish we were using the imperial units they are more familiar with

I for one will be happy when we are fully metricated here.

Dan

http://www.dtware.com

 

[bertyboy]

JAE, that was interesting.
Don't worry about gut feel, you would eventually adjust.
Actually apart from the logicality of having units counting in tens, hundreds e.t.c., the metric system has another big advantage over the Imperial system :-
The inter-relation between the different units, i.e. How much does a 1m3 of steel weigh ?
Well 1m3 of water weighs 1Te, the specific gravity of steel is 7.65, therefore 1m3 of steel weighs 7.65Te.
You can not do this with the Imperial system !!!!!

 

[JAE]

I do remember reading somewhere about the history and concept behind the Imperial vs. metric systems. I don't mean to open a can of worms, but this particular article spoke of the "source" of the metric system as coming out of socialistic/marxist concepts of "man is a machine" while the Imperial units were derived from a more humanistic view of life - the inches, pounds, feet, etc. were derived from the human body.

It was quite philosophical and interesting for the history....but the application and use today of metric, I'm sure, doesn't mean squat to a marxist. Or does it?

 

[bertyboy]

Please allow me to continue :-

Consider temperature, which is better Celcius, or Fahrenheit ?

Again for me there is no comparison.
What are the 2 most meaningful benchmarks of temperature in every day life, that we can all relate to ?
It has to be the boiling point, and freezing point of water.
We can observe these points every day, by boiling a kettle, and opening the freezer. Say the first point is 100, and the second is 0, and there you have it Celcius.
Now because Celcius is established on these 2 everyday benchmarks, it means that have a better feel for the magnitude of these units.

Yes the metric system is also beautiful, because of the inter-relation of the different units, and the benchmarking of the units.

 

[bertyboy]

JAE, do you know where the meter comes from ?

It was the ten millionth of the distance between Paris, and the North Pole, in otherwards there are 10,000km between them.
Whilst it would have been more useful if it was a fraction of the diameter of the Earth e.t.c., it doesn't alter the fact that it is still a practical benchmark.

 

[AJUK]

I think JAE's comment on how deeply ingrained some of the units are within our (US & UK) culture is very important. The Brits will NEVER give up there beloved pint of beer "568ml of best bitter, guv" just doesnt have the same ring.

The examples of miles, stones and especially feet and inches are particularly relevant. If you asked the average man on the street to describe another person they may say '6ft tall and weighing 14 stone'; if you described them as 1.82m and weighing 83kg, they wouldnt have a clue!

33 years after metric we still use miles and not kilometres for distances. Again try a small experiment on the street sof Britain and ask somebody how far it is to the nearest petrol station, the answer will be in miles. The reason is probably the expense, it will be even more expensive for a large country such as the US.

Units are arbitary anyway, an inch is only an inch because somebody said it was and metric is essentially a political idea. The clue to the rise of Imperial measurements is in the name. Britain was the first country to industrialise and was more advanced in technology than any other nation on the planet at the time which, in turn, gave rise to the British empire. Then the measurement system of choice was the Imperial system. This was adopted by America and now it's her turn to be the most powerful nation on the planet - if they use Imperial (English) units you are not going to stop them.

Interesting subject that I'm sure will spark more debate, Bertboy.

 

[bertyboy]

AJUK, I agree with alot of your comments.
However, I dont think that just because we order pints in a pub, that this is necessarily an indication that the litre hasn't been successful.
I think the younger generation will start measuring peoples heights in meter, although I have to admit that I use feet and inches for peoples heights, however I use meters, for of all other heights. ( i.e. a useful reference dim that Engineers and Architects use for height, is that a door should be a min. height of 2.1m )
I do not use stones and pounds anymore to measure peoples weight, I definately use kilograms.
I think that the mile will be the most enduring unit in Britain, because it is still not under threat.

The reason why these remnants exist above is not because Imperial is considered better by some, and therefore there is resistance to change, it is more because the mothers and fathers, have indoctrinated the current younger generation, therefore there is bound to be a generation lag after the change.

 

[lsmfse]

Bertyboy, An example to illustrate the problem comes from a general contractor bidding a parking structure in our town. The final bid came in sveral hundred thousand dollars over the city estimate. The city required the plans use the metric system, which the contractor explained was the "fear" of the subcontractors unfamiliarity with this system. Instead of seeing the typical 2x4's,W12x22,#6 rebar@12" o.c, 9 yards of concrete, 4x8 sheet of plywood, joists @ 16" o.c etc, etc(let alone the supply houses unfamiliarity with the system)the subs all admitted padding their bids. It will take some time, but eventually the U.S. will convert.

 

[gvanbeek]

Bertboy:

I agree that the metric system is better for many calculations. However two strong points:

(1) °F have much better correlation to everyday life in that 0°F and 100°F are linked to the temperature extremes that the human body can withstand. The greater graduation lets me and my wife decide whether 73F or 74F is a better temperature for the thermostat (vs 22.77777C or 23.3333C)
(2) I think the British would be taken a little more seriously on the issue of which is a better system once they stop mixing the systems. It is not uncommon for me to receive drawings for piping listed as 6" diameter by 4,200 mm long!

 

[corus]

As far as I'm aware the american imperial system is different from the british imperial system in some ways. One american pint of beer (if it exists now) is in fact 0.83 british pints. Getting short measures was probably the real reason for the american revolution, and who can blame them.
Seriously though, I always struggled over the poundal, pound force, and pound, especially as lb, alone, was commonly used throughout. At least with metric the units are distinct and we can be grateful that Newton, with his simple name, discovered it and not anyone else. Assessing a structure for a load of 1000 Albert Winterbottoms doesn't have the same ring to it as 1000 Newtons, somehow. Apologies to Albert.

 

[JAE]

corus...are you suggesting we Yanks are, hic!, lushes?

 

[nhyankee2]

Wid tonge firmly planted in cheek...

Metric system is just for those lazy bums that don't want to divide by 12 and 4 and 3 and 7 and 62.4 and...

They just want to juggle the decimal point!

 

[EnglishMuffin]

Corus - what exactly are you saying that Newton (with his simple name), discovered ? He certainly didn't discover the "Newton", which was an unknown unit until the mid 20th century as far as I am aware.
JAE - The individual most responsible for the "Metric System" was clearly Napolean. This lunatic even tried to change the number of degrees in a right angle to 100. Because of it's factorability, counting in 12's actually makes much more sense than counting in tens, a fact which seems to have escaped N in spite of his much vaunted mathematical ability. Luckily it did not escape the Baylonians, who gave us 24 hours in a day and sixty minutes in an hour - to say nothing of 360 dgerees in a right angle. The Metric sytem is French, and should therefore be instinctively resisted by any red blooded person of British ancestry, on either side of the pond!

ps - you have to take the above with a grain of salt !

 

[EnglishMuffin]

Sorry - I meant 360 degrees in one revolution ! - so much for my mathematical ability !

 

[AJUK]

Here, here, EnglishMuffin.

(The channel is 21 MILES across, thankfully)

 

[corus]

EnglishM,
You're quite right, I meant to say that the unit of Force was named after Newton, and not Albert Winterbottom.

I'm not sure that Napoleon was responsible for the metric system though as being a small man he was just a 12 inch ruler, surely?

corus

 

[bertyboy]

Folks, listen to how stupid the units of length were :-
12 inches = 1 foot
3 feet = 1 yard
22 yards = 1 chain
10 chains = 1 furlong
8 furlongs = 1 mile
Now tell me that the person that came out with all that wasn't taking the p--- !

By the way the British Imperial system was not exactly the same as the US Imperial system. For example our gallon, and ton were not exactly the same as yours.
To differentiate this our sytem was called Imperial units, and yours was called US, or Customary units ( sometimes English ! ).
For example :-
1 Imperial gallon = 1.2 US gallons
1 Imperial ton = 2240 lbs ( called a long ton in the US )
1 US ton = 2000 lbs ( called a short ton in the US )