The Profession 19

[DannyGlover]

I just want to give my two cents about the state of the profession.

1. I believe for the most part it is an incredible amount of work for how much money it pays. Many organization expect too much free overtime in name of professionalism and too many meek engineers just give it. Stop it. A god damn plumber is smart enough to not work for free. If you are scrambling to get a project out, ok but if it is an every week thing knock it off.

2. Organizations treat engineers like cattle and just an expense. I don't feel anyone in management really gets the expense of bad engineering. Engineering is an expense and the cheapest is often seen as the best option.

3. Engineers do an incredibly bad job conveying their worth to an organization. The reason why analyst and people in other occupations do well is because they make their worth to the organization measurable. Engineers make no effort in quantifying their efforts. Why is this?

4. Every company has no interest in training an engineer for anything. Every company would rather gobble up someone who worked at some other organization. If they do hire someone new, two many organizations believe that and expect a green engineer can somehow bootstrap himself to an expert without the expense of mentoring. If you worried about your new engineers being a flight risk, apply for a H1-B visa. Never have to worry about them switching companies for more money.

5. I really get tired after being several years out of school and being close to applying for my PE license, having to explain why I am better than a fresh grad. People switch to adjacent positions all the time and never have to explain why they are better than a fresh grad. I also get tired of people who believe that being good at software package X, makes you a good engineer and extremely valuable to the company. When did the software package become engineers? Does our profession do such a bad job in promoting itself that people believe that engineering is nothing more than being familiar with a software package? Would you let a plumber work on your car because he knows how to turn a wrench?

6. I truly believe any engineer worth his salt could have made more money becoming a plumber or electrician and starting his own company. Most engineers are smart cookies and motivated. What the hell happened to this profession? I have half of mind to just drop from the profession and start my own company. A lot of politics, low wages, and low security. If I want low wages and low security, why not start my own company?


7. Shortage in the industry? Really, why aren't people more vocal over the fact that there is absolutely no shortage. The only shortage I see is of engineers with 15+ years of experience will to work for X, which was caused by many industries not being interested in training newer engineers due to the fact that is an expense.

8. If there is a shortage, why haven't the effective wages been going up? The effective wage of engineers has only been going down in the US. Am I in bizaro world? What kind of shortage is this?

9. Why are electrical utilities screaming that their is a shortage of power engineers and believe that getting more students interested in engineering is going to solve this supposed problem? Only 30-40 percent of graduating engineers go into engineering. What are we trying to do? Reduce that number to 10%?

10. If there really is a shortage, I'll tell you how to get broke college students serious about engineering. Pay nice starting salaries. Period.

Maybe , engineering is completely different for you if you have 10+ years of experience. Much of this though I just don't get or understand. I like engineering a lot but it has left me a little frustrated lately.

 

[TED7]

I noticed almost exactly the same thing working for a small company led by an a pair of accountants and a salesman. It had everything you mentioned.
- Nobody higher up knew what bad engineering was so didnt care
- Pay was rubbish
- Stress all day
- Lots of free overtime expected
- Average lenth of employment for engineers was 1.5 years (almost all from graduate) until they tried to get a raise, failed and moved on.

I now work for a large company led by engineers. It's completly the opposite, I get the feeling I have barely any work to do and theres hardly any stress (not particularly true, Im just comparing it to a situation where every job was a 'fire engine')

Will
Sheffield UK
Designer of machine tools - user of modified screws

 

[tygerdawg]

So just say "no" and push back a little. But make sure you do it nicely, politely, and professionally. You may be surprised at how much power you actually have in an organization. But the cost of being able to de-stress your job and go home at a reasonable hour is that you will be branded by worthless management hacks as "non team player", "having a bad attitude", and other lame aphorisms. And possibly getting a few more entries on your resume. Not bad things, really.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering

http://www.bluetechnik.com

 

[KENAT]

What the hell makes you think most of those complaints are so unique to Engineering?

I've heard them, or variations there on, from folks in all kinds of industries/professions etc..

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[TheBlacksmith]

We have to take mandatory ethics training every year. One of the thing they stress is accurate time charging and they say this is important because underreporting time can give a false impression of the true cost of a job and lead to underbidding new jobs. Whenever I feel I'm being pressured to work extra time I just tell them how I'm taking one for the future of the company by only working 40 hours a week so they have realistic manpower cost data for future contracts.

 

[flash3780]

I can't comment on the rant, I actually think engineers have it pretty good overall. How many other jobs pay you just to think stuff up? Architect maybe? Artist? How cool is it that engineers get paid just figure stuff out and just plain make things work. However, I do like the title of the thread:

"The Profession" sounds like the title to a slick TV drama. How cool would that be? I think that it should follow several teams of crack engineers who work for a consulting firm investigating industrial accidents, designing weapons systems, testing/improving vehicle designs, creating/testing new engines, and developing power generation equipment.

I smell Emmy...

 

[dvd]

Star for MG. A nice rant, I have similar thoughts.

 

[jmw]

But what a handle....Mel Gibson isn't any too tightly wrapped these days....and the real Mel's rant would land him back in court.... but yes, these are all fundamentally sound complaints, but as Kenat suggests, not unique to engineering. Management are equal opportunity shafters.... they'll shaft anyone just so they can "fulfil their legal obligation to the shareholders" to rip off the workers.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[DannyGlover]

No, I don't believe they are as common as Kenat believes. I know a lot of people who make as much or more than engineers with less stress, liability, hours, and more security. Maybe, this is comparing apples to oranges but I don't think that it should be like this. I like engineering and I know some of you guys have some pretty sweet gigs or something you are in the least to be content with but on the whole I think things aren't too hot.

I have been visiting this site several times a week for the past four years and I knew which people would probably counter.. Kenat being one. I have enjoyed reading about the engineering and work problems that all of you run into. I just am frustrated with how much I put into it and how much I get out. Maybe, I am just picking bad companies, bad positions or something but the idea of just dropping out of engineering to start my company starts feeling more and more compelling. I remember awhile back a guy quit engineering to be an electrician awhile back because he was just tired of it so I am not the only one. I just had an interview yesterday with a company that does a lot of interesting things and some of things said riled me up a bit. Take that with some salt if you want.

 

[KENAT]

Let me ask you this Mel, why did you become an Engineer?

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[DannyGlover]

I like problem solving and learning about new things. The interest isn't imaginary. I have attended a load of conferences, have a bunch of books that I have gone through, picked up a 30 i/o plc to give me some experience with plc controls, and taken 20+ credits in grad courses. I had a mediocre undgrad gpa and it made it really hard for me to get into engineering. After, I got in I basically was doing anything that I thought would help me be effective in what I was doing. I am not saying I am the bees knees. I don't have 20 years of experience but whereever I have gone I have never felt I had a hard time pulling from other new hires. In my grad classes, I also don't feel like I am in anyway out of my league. I don't believe that engineering has a monopoly on problem solving or learning about new things. Engineering will in the least always be a hobby for me even if I am not doing it as a job.

 

[KENAT]

Well, that's a better reason than the 'I was good at Math & Physics and my counselor/teacher pushed me to Engineering/I fancied a challenge' crowd that all too often seem to later regret becoming an Engineer.

It's not that many of the things you list don't annoy me, or that I haven't seen them etc. I'm just not convinced the grass is universally greener in other fields.

There are some lawyers making well into the six figures etc. but how many hours did they put in early in their career, how much extra time & cost to study law after their under grad degree.

Doctors too spend more time at school and often work some real unsociable hours early in their career etc.

Finance & banking have their own issues.

As to trades, I've know people that didn't like it because of the physical tol it can take. While some people make loads at it, others seem to struggle, at least when the construction market dips.

Maybe for you being an Electrician would be more fulfilling and more rewarding, I'm not convinced similar is true for most other engineers.

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[MikeHalloran]

During my brief stint at one of the Evil Empires, an engineering line manager quit, to finish building and then crew on, a lobsterboat. At the time, I didn't understand why.

I do now.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[csd72]

MelGibson,

I can remember feeling almost exactly as you have described, I nearly singlehandedly convinced half the engineering department to get other jobs.

I am now at the opposite end of the scale, my opinion is not only valued but is sought out, the director of the company knows me personally, and my manager is actively seeking ways to enhance my role in order to keep me.

What I am trying to say is that there are good jobs out there though they may not be in the exact niche that you are working in.

The job that I am in now was such a sideways step that I would never have picked it in a million years if I wasnt desperate for the work. But I am glad I did.

 

[mechengdude]

Interesting rant. I have had some of the same thoughts. After doing the job for twenty years I still have some of the same thoughts but have choosen to attack the problem a little differently than originally planned.

Instead of trying to change the world, I have adjusted. I just choose not to get upset about things I can't change.

What I can change is my employement situation and my reactions to situations. Now I'm fortunate to work for a company that pays me well and doesn't create a constant environment of stress.

Review your rant in ten years. Hopefully you will have mellowed with age like a fine wine.

Regards

 

[moltenmetal]

Amen brother Mel! Testify!

Like many others here, I too have a GREAT gig, after a series of bad ones. But I know there's a huge difference between my own situation and that of the average employee engineer- the situation I once found myself in, which sucked big time. And I see us as authors of our own misfortune. We work absurd amounts of overtime for free, we don't know the monetary value of our services to the organizations we serve, nor do we demand our fair and proper share of that value- how could we if we don't even KNOW it? Some of us even encourage and promote an increase of supply into our profession. These are our fault, not the fault of our employers.

Our biggest fault is that as a profession, we've withdrawn from personal risk, preferring to become wage slaves instead of businesspeople. As a result, we've allowed our services to be commodified, and we've been permitted to capture far less of the value we create than we would be able to if we remained more engaged in the business of what we do. Instead of delivering products and projects, capturing our fair share of the value of the risks we take and the innovations we make, most of us sell paper and services, and get the servants' wages we deserve. It's for this reason, plus the obvious explosion on the supply side into our profession over the past half century, that we have slipped so dramatically in the relative value of our profession to its members in salaries etc. when compared to other professions.

Unlike many in the "leadership" of our profession, I don't confuse personal anecdotes with data, nor do I confuse criticism of our labour situation for a criticism of the value of our profession to society. I've got the labour market data and I understand quite clearly what is going on, and why, and it makes me absolutely furious.

As to employment opportunities, the last survey I saw showed the the average engineering grad here in Ontario was significantly more likely to be unemployed 2 years after graduation than the average of all university graduates. That little shocker has gone unnoticed as the universities continue to raise enrollments. Clearly, 2/3 of engineering grads working outside engineering isn't a sufficiently flooded labour market for some folks. There's a chronic shortage of entry level engineering jobs.

KENAT's right in that there is much in your rant which is a criticism of the life of salaried employment in general rather than of engineering as a specific career choice. But again, what bothers me is that people, engineers amongst them, still tout our profession like it was "the next big thing", despite the fact taht 2/3 of the grads are already voting with their feet.

 

[csd72]

Agreed, and this is a story that is reflected in Australia, UK and the US.

The worst culprits are our peers. Engineers Australia has once again published a list of Australias top 50 'engineers' and almost all of them are managing directors. If the pinnacle of our profession is a position that involves little or no engineering then how can we expect anyone else to respect the profession.

 

[lacajun]

The garbage I've seen and endured in my own work has brought me to the point of changing directions somehow. I have a few options to consider.

I've had direct and significant economic results to show management who only told me I was not doing enough. I resigned from that company several years ago and they have yet to find an adequate replacement.

 

[jmw]

Yes, I know the feeling.
I fought long and hard against bad management and bad managers to bring in a project which has resulted in many many millions of dollars extra business.
The moment it started to take off they made me redundant (I think they realised that my bonus system would, uniquely, not only pay out money but lots of it).


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[controlsdude]

Management is usually a bunch of no nothings (empty soulless suits) who got there by either browning their nose or undercutting the guy next to them.
I get paid every week or two, so my obligation to them stops when I see my check does not bounce.

Who said being an engineer was being stroked by your boss?

I like what I do because I get satisfaction from solving problems and see things run in a semi flawless manner.

Dont hang your life on how your treated at work, you will be very disappointed in the end.

end of story