Continue to Site

Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

  • Congratulations SDETERS on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

The public's view of our profession in the US 2

Status
Not open for further replies.

65Roses

Automotive
Mar 24, 2004
106
Recently I've read a lot about how the engineering profession is not viewed by the public like it used to be. The authors of these articles speak about how we have lost ground to other professions such as doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc, in the eye of the public. These authors (for example NCEE representatives) go on to blame the educational system stating the traditional 4 year undergraduate engineering degree is not what it used to be. They state today's degree is a watered down version of what was taught 30 or 40 years ago and that Universities need to add a couple more years of course work to the requirements of obtaining an engineering degree.

I think that is nonsense. I've believe our problem with how we are perceived by the public is how we conduct ourselves at work.

First of all start with the current dress code at most companies across the US today. An engineer used to wear a tie to work. The dress code these days seems to be dress casual. I frequently observe co-workers wearing t-shirts, blue jeans (worn out)and sneakers. Most don't even bother to iron their shirts anymore even if they do wear one with a collar. I also see co-workers who will go a week or so without shaving and others who rarely keep a neat and trim haircut. What kind of impression does this give to those who come in contact with us who are not engineers? I know in my factory most production asssociates can't distinsh a technician from an engineer and I suspect this is one of the reasons why.

Second of all I think some (not all) engineers have become complacent in their jobs. This again gives the wrong impression to those who we work with that aren't engineers. These associates often form a negative view about the skills of engineers and then pass their views about engineers onto family member, friends, etc.

Third engineers today are just considered staff to upper management. My father who has worked on the manufacturing line for nearly 35 years speaks of the days when engineers were considered part of management and were referred to as management. Now days we are just called staff. Our job has no prestige. Today we have salaried associates with no degrees or some sort of Bachelor of Arts degree higher up on the corporate ladder than all the engineers in the company.

Just my two cents on this topic. What is your opinion(s)?
 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

Most of the jobs that I had required formal attire. My current one is "business casual". The male staff here usually wear khakis and collared shirts. The female staff are more formally attired than the men and are usually wearing business suits half the time. I don't think dress codes are the real issue about why we don't get any respect. I think the real issue is that the culture in the USA only values "party animal" type people. Musicians, Actors, Drug Dealers, Athletes, Celebrities, etc are most people's heros. Engineers are too boring to the average person in the USA, most of whom are too unintelligent to understand the simplest mathematical formula.
 
I also think this is nonsense. I do disagree with most of your reasoning as to why this might be.
1. The dress code has changed because people have changed. I see no reason to wear a tie or any other semi-formal attire to work. If you will be in touch with the public or a client on a particular day, then yes dress up. I believe most engineers practice this type of dressing so not many clients/public see the engineer running around with worn out levis, tennis shoes, and a t-shirt (exactly what I have on now).
2. I would agree to a degree that engineers have become complacent but I would add that everyone has become a bit more complacent (all careers) due to the corporate environment which we are suppossed to be so loyal too. With all the corporate corruption, illegal activities, and the way employees are treated now is way different than 20 years ago and it reflects in the employees attitudes.
3. This one is addressed in the above.

I believe the biggest reasons go with your number three above; corporate view of engineers, engineers being replaced with pseudo-engineers (as defined in another thread), and the new view of engineers by the public (you know everyone is an engineer, the garbage man, the boiler technician, etc).

I don't believe things have went to much down hill (although they have some). I do see many cases of lack of knowledge about what engineers do but there are still many people who know what engineers are and what it takes to become one. I recently had a lady tell me that engineers were her babies and she just loved engineers because of all the hard work that most do. No she was not flirting with me (I dont think - hehe).

 
Doctors and lawyers deal with the public engineers don't. When you go to a lawyer or doctor he/she is wearing a suit and tie. The publics view of engineers is being forme by TV shows such as Beauty and the Geek.
The dumming down of America is going at an exponential rate. It use to take 10,000 chimps with typewriters centuries to write Shakespear. Now it takes 3 or 4 with word processors a week to write a TV script.
 
When your appearance translates into more money, I'll put stock in dress codes.

Some of the people at my job dress like complete slobs (and they are disgusting).
 
Just look at the economy today - manufacturing has been displaced along with some engineering jobs. When you described the "glory days" of engineers, it was at a time when manufacturing was prevalent in the US, and engineers were directly involved with manufacturing. This I believe enhanced the perception of the value of engineering.



 
Given that engineers don't generally interface with the public, is it not surprising that they (the public) don't know what we are?

In a UK newspaper there was a poll several years to find out who was the best known engineer to its readers. The result - a car mechanic in a TV soap. He even beat "Scotty" from Star Trek!

In the world of the media, particularly TV, the only time I ever hear the right terminolgy is in Formula 1: "The race engineer directing his skilled team technicians...".

I was a prosecution witness in a court case recently where one of the defence's main tactics was to point out that the alleged victims (including me) were all well-paid well-educated professional people, unlike the poor defendent. When the defence lawyer asked for my profession, I looked him in the eye and said "Engineer". His face dropped.
 
I am really getting fed up with posts like this, full of unsubstantiated generalizations.

First of all what engineers? Civil, electrical, computer, mechanical, bio, chemical, automotive? All of us? I don't really think you can generalize to all types of engineers.

Second, people don't dress like that where I work. We don't wear ties, but we arn't slobs, and the engineers I work with dress just like the business people and the lawyers etc. I have worked as a consultant and I never came across an organization that dressed as you described. So I guess that proves you are wrong. (Please people stop making a case based on a narrow observation. Where you work is not the world!)

No one complacent in our organization, we're too busy...

In our organization engineers are where the next managers come from. So I don't get your point about staff.

Finally, I suppose that for most of the public, their impression of engineers comes from TV. So what do you expect? I am also a bit PO'd about the portrait TV paints of fathers, but that is the current fad. Fathers are stupid, engineers are geeks. In the Houston area if you say you are an engineer people automatically think of NASA, so I guess we have here at least one geographical area where engineers are well thought of by the public. Also if you are on jury duty and put engineer on your forms, it almost always gets you out because lawyers want jurors to make their decision on emotion, not facts and analysis.

But most of the doom and gloom types on this board will point out that engineering as a profession is going down the toilet, we should enjoy our jobs while we can because all engineering is soon to be done by people in India, and that engineers in the US will be paid minimum wage, if they can find a job at all. So what difference does it make?
 

Maybe we need a reality TV show involving Army Engineers, or SeeBees, or something along those lines.

Being able to perform pontoon bridge construction, obstacle breaching, airstrip building, or water line laying under shelling and direct fire would add a dimension to the engineering arts not oft' seen!
 
As I am certainly a member of the "new school" (having worked for a grand total of six months) I'm not sure how much my view can account for. But at my office everybody wears a suit and tie - even the shipping/receiving guys. It only has to do with the president's wishes, we certainly don't do it for fun. (I'm in Florida)

I will allow that television certainly influences public perception of all jobs, even all types of people. It does depend on what is being watched. I, of course, lean heavily towards the Discovery channel(s) and miss the glory days of Junkyard Wars. Of course, even those people are not quite "true" engineers.

I think in the US there is somewhat of a double standard between pride for the working man who gets his hands dirty and respect for the power of the suits in their cushy offices. Engineers are somewhere in between, and I am happy with that.
 
SMS

If you are so fed up with posts like this then why do you even bother to reply to them. The post was never meant to be anything more than an off topic friendly discussion. It was an opinion of perception in my area and I asked everyone's opinion for their area. I do value your response even if a little harsh.

Ask yourself this question. If you asked anyone in your company other than the engineers what they thought about the engineers in your company I bet most would respond negatively.
 
Structural engineers are usually ignored by the general public. Most average citizens aren't even aware that we exist. Few may be able to make a connection with architects, even fewer realize that structural engineering is in fact different from architecture.

The only movie that I can remember which has a pseudo structural engineer plays a major role is Arlington Avenue.

In the media, if they even talk about structural engineers, usually some sort of failure took place just prior.

I suppose if I don't hear about my profession in the news, all of us are doing our jobs right...
 
When I used to tell people that I was a mechanical engineer, they thought that I was an expert in repairing cars (like a mechanic). Well, mechanical engineering was like that a 120 years ago when it began.
 
For the past 2 weeks in a daily crossword ,the solution for a 8 letter word for mechanic is ENGINEER!!

 
If you make a reality show on Structural Engineer, a casually dressed person sitting 8-10 hours gaping on the computer screen, with calculator on left hand, right hand on keymourd and mouse and face making weird twitches will make for a lousy show. In contrast, an ironworker will steal the show.

Ciao.
 
And let's not forget that <sarcasm>truly wonderful </sarcasm> show: Desperate Domestic Engineers

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
flamby -

you missed the out on the pun!

...an ironworker will STEEL the show :)

this probably points out why there aren't any sit-coms based on engineers...

 
I don't know about you guys, but the "public" gets pretty excited thinking I know how to drive a train.


 
The most recent Canadian survey I saw indicated that we engineers were held in relatively high esteem when compared with other professions- but that the public basically had no clue what the heck we engineers did for a living.

Until they know, they won't care about us.

We're the hidden profession- we're only noticed when we screw up. The public has little direct interaction with us, though what we do underpins their very existence. As Kipling said, we're the Sons of Martha- making the world safe for the dreamers and thinkers.

As to dress code: the quickest way to discredit yourself in my business is to show up in a suit and tie. Nobody will take you seriously because you're afraid to get your hands dirty- you sit behind a computer screen or push a pencil all day! We dress practically and we look like our customers. In my opinion, and in the expressed opinion of many of my customers, too many self-important consultants running around in suits and ties, generating drawings and specs on paper with basically zero accountability to the client beyond generating new drawings and specs if their original design doesn't work out- these people are much more responsible for a decrease in our profession's esteem than any change in dress code.
 
==> the quickest way to discredit yourself in my business is to show up in a suit and tie.

I would modify that "to show up dressed inappropriately". A suit and tie might be right for some events and in some environments, and altogether wrong in others. Dress properly for the occasion.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor