Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

The "Pause" - A Review of Its Significance and Importance to Climate Science 77

Status
Not open for further replies.

rconnor

Mechanical
Sep 4, 2009
556
0
0
CA
----------Introduction---------
A comparison of recent temperature trends in isolation of earlier data, say 1998-present, to long(er)-term temperature trends, say 1970-present, reveals that more recent temperature trends are lower than long-term temperature trends. This has led many, including many prominent climate scientists, to refer to the recent period as a “pause”, “hiatus” or “slowdown”. While in isolation of any other context besides two temperature trends, the term “pause” or “hiatus” may be quasi-accurate, much more context is required to determine whether these terms are statistically and, more importantly, physically accurate.

It should be noted that most times when these terms are used by climate scientists, they keep the quotation marks to indicate the mention-form of the word and are not implying an actual physical pause or hiatus in climate change. The subsequent research into the physical mechanism behind the “pause” has continually demonstrated that it is not indicative of a pause in climate change nor does it suggest a drastic reduction in our estimates of climate sensitivity. However, this fact appears to be lost on many who see the “pause” as some kind of death-blow to the anthropogenic climate change theory or to the relevancy of climate change models.

While this subject has been discussed repeatedly in these forums, it has never been the focus but rather used as a jet-pack style argument to change the conversation from the subject at hand to the “pause” (“Well that can’t be right because the Earth hasn’t warmed in X years!”). Revisiting past threads, I cannot find an example of where someone attempted to defend the “pause” as a valid argument against anthropogenic climate change. It is brought up, debunked and then not defended (and then gets brought up again 5 posts later). The hope is to discuss the scientific literature surrounding the “pause” to help readers understand why the “pause” is simply not a valid argument. While some points have been discussed (usually by me) before, this post does contain new research as well as 2014 and 2015 temperature data, which shed even more light on the topic. The post will be split into three parts: 1) the introduction (and a brief discussion on satellite versus surface station temperature data sets), 2) Does the “pause” suggest that climate change is not due to anthropogenic CO2? and 3) Does the “pause” suggest that climate models are deeply flawed?

------Why I Will Be Using Ground-Based Temperature Data Sets-------
Prior to going into the meat of the discussion, I feel it necessary to discuss why I will be using ground-based temperature data sets and not satellite data sets. Perhaps one of the most hypocritical and confused (or purposefully misleading) arguments on many “skeptic” blogs is the disdain for all ground-based temperature data sets and the promotion of satellite temperature data sets. The main contention with ground-based temperature data sets is that they do not include raw data and require homogenization techniques to produce their end result. While I am not here (in this thread) to discuss the validity of such techniques, it is crucial to understand that satellite temperature data sets go through a much more involved and complex set of calculations, adjustments and homogenizations to get from their raw data to their end product. Both what they measure and where they measure it are very important and highlights the deep confusion (or purposeful misdirection) of “skeptic” arguments that ground-based temperatures are rubbish and satellite-based temperatures are “better”.

[ul][li]Satellites measure radiances in different wavelength bands, not temperature. These measurements are mathematically inverted to obtain indirect inferences of temperature (Uddstrom 1988). Satellite data is closer to paleoclimate temperature reconstructions than modern ground-based temperature data in this way.[/li]
[li]Satellite record is constructed from a series of satellites, meaning the data is not fully homogeneous (Christy et al, 1998). Various homogenization techniques are required to create the record. (RSS information)[/li]
[li]Satellites have to infer the temperature at various altitudes by attempting to mathematically remove the influence of other layers and other interference (RSS information). This is a very difficult thing to do and the methods have gone through multiple challenges and revisions. (Mears and Wentz 2005, Mears et al 2011, Fu et al 2004)[/li]
[li]Satellites do not measure surface temperatures. The closest to “surface” temperatures they get are TLT which is an loose combination of the atmosphere centered roughly around 5 km. It is also not even a direct measurement channel (which themselves are not measuring temperature directly) but a mathematically adjustment of other channels. Furthermore, due to the amount of adjustments involved, TLT has constantly required revisions to correct errors and biases (Christy et al 1998, Fu et al 2005).[/li]
[li]See the discussion on Satellite data sets in IPCC Report (section 3.4.1.2)[/li]
[li]Satellite data and the large amount of homogenization and adjustments required to turn the raw data into useful temperature data are still being question to this day. Unlike ground-based adjustments which lead to trivial changes in trends (from the infamous Karl et al 2015), recent research shows that corrections of perhaps 30% are required for satellite data (Weng et al 2013 .[/li][/ul]

None of this is meant to say the satellite temperature data is “wrong” but it very clearly highlights the deep-set confusion in the “skeptic” camp about temperature data sets. If one finds themselves dismissing ground-based temperature data sets because they require homogenization or adjustments while claiming satellite temperature data sets are superior have simply been lead astray by “skeptics” or are trying to lead others astray. Furthermore, it clearly demonstrates that any attempt to compare satellite data (which measures the troposphere) to the surface temperature output of models is completely misguided (*cough*John Christy *cough*). It is for these reasons that I will use ground-based data in the rest of the post.

Again, I would like to state that I do not wish this to be a focal point of this discussion. I am merely outline why I will be using ground-based temperature data sets and my justification for that as, undoubtedly, someone would claim I should be using satellite temperature datasets. In fact, I appear to be in pretty good company; Carl Mears, one of the chief researchers of RSS (and the same Mears from all the papers above), stated:
Carl Mears said:
My particular dataset (RSS tropospheric temperatures from MSU/AMSU satellites) show less warming than would be expected when compared to the surface temperatures. All datasets contain errors. In this case, I would trust the surface data a little more because the difference between the long term trends in the various surface datasets (NOAA, NASA GISS, HADCRUT, Berkeley etc) are closer to each other than the long term trends from the different satellite datasets. This suggests that the satellite datasets contain more “structural uncertainty” than the surface dataset
If this is a topic of interest to people, perhaps starting your own thread would be advisable as I will not be responding to comments on temperature data sets on this thread. Now, onto the actual discussion…
 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

You actually reinforced my claim that you are cherry picking climate models and ignoring the events before that period of time.

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
Panther140, how is it cherry picking when he was responding to your comment about the "Climate has not changed in 20 years" (which itself is a cherry picked period...)? He clearly disproved that (as have I). To then shift the conversation to the little ice age (which I have already addressed) is your mistake, not his.

Regarding your little ice age claim, see the PAGES 2K reconstruction above (or here).

How about instead of jumping from point to point, you actually address the evidence we've brought forward. Your little game of whack-a-mole is getting tiresome.
 
Pages 2k shows our current temp to have returned to pre ice age levels.

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
From the abstract of the PAGES 2K paper: "during the period ad 1971–2000, the area-weighted average reconstructed temperature was higher than any other time in nearly 1,400 years." So no, we haven't "returned to pre [mini] ice age levels", we've surpassed them at an exceptional rate. And note that we are now much warmer than the 1971-2000 period.

We currently are sitting near a solar minimum similar to the little ice age but have warmed at a rate order of magnitude faster than the last interglacial period. That ain't natural.

Also, using a paper from Michael Mann to support your position that climate change is natural is rather humorous.

But, again, if you want to assert that "it's natural" then explain to us how "it's changed before" if "climate sensitivity is low"? You tried orbital cycles but they require a strong sensitivity to CO2 release to account for past changes. Even, as described to zdas04, you pretend the CO2 release didn't matter, then you are putting more weight on albedo and CH4 feedbacks, both of which are feedbacks of CO2 forcing (meaning CO2 sensitivity is high).
 
rconnor, on January 7th you said

I’ve been instructed to not post on this topic anymore...

Has something changed in this regard, or have you simply decided to ignore the instructions from site management?

Maui

 
Maui,

GregLocock’s appearance in this thread was interesting to me and I wanted to get his opinion. Then, as this is my thread, I felt a little custodial duty to address some other comments. I am not starting any new threads nor will I comment in new threads. So not to worry Maui, you’ll soon be free to discuss this topic without my involvement.
 
Even though so many people have made up there minds, I do enjoy the discussion, and tangents that have happened because of this topic.

Like many people I never expected to change any ones minds, But at the risk of learning something we did not know, or had not looked into, the discussion was great.

Sadly it did get a little over heated at times, and I don't believe it was ever intended to madden anyone.

Thank you for engaging.
 
"the area-weighted average reconstructed temperature was higher than any other time in nearly 1,400 years"

Which makes sense, because the medieval warm period was waning [sub]"nearly"[/sub] 1400 years ago, and then was followed by the mini ice age roughly 1000 years ago.



"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
Your article assumes that 1,400 years is some sort of representative sample of how climate on earth should be

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
"Your article assumes that 1,400 years is some sort of representative sample of how climate on earth should be"
And why not? Is there a doubt in your mind that we want the temperature to be more than a few degrees away from what the last 2 millenia has had? We're in that Goldilocks regime of "just about right," so it certainly makes sense to try and keep it that way, particularly if we're having an impact that will cause this environment to grossly diverge.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //faq731-376 forum1529
 
Goldilocks huh?!? Call me a bourgeois reactionary, but I would hope that we know the point of criticality just a little better than "meh, seems about right" if billions, and perhaps trillions are going to be spent mitigating this boogeyman.

All in good fun, no offense to you, IRstuff! Like Cranky said, it's been a good discussion, and educational. I believe that anything that stops short of physical combat is of intellectual benefit. The exchange of ideas is fundamental to who we are and the advancement of our civilization. If we all agreed all of the time, what a dull and stagnant place it would be. Who is to say what element of a debate or discussion will spark something revolutionary in the mind of another?

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
 
@Panther140:

You said:
Your article assumes that 1,400 years is some sort of representative sample of how climate on earth should be

"Should be" is a loaded term - it implies that there is a single "right" climate for the Earth. As has been repeatedly stated, the Earth's climate continually changes through natural non-biological causes (eg orbital dynamics, solar radiance), natural biological causes (we only have an oxygen-laden atmosphere because of the natural evolution of first microbial life-forms, and then plant life, over billions of years), and artificial causes (CO2 emissions, land use change, etc). The question is the rate and magnitude of the change.

Some of the causes of climate changes are cyclic (eg the correlation of Ice Ages with orbital dynamics) while others trend in one direction, some are gradual (eg natural rise and fall of CO2 / O2), some are sudden or even cataclysmic (major volcanic activity or asteroid strike - fortunately, these events are infrequent!), some are short-lived, and others are long-term, some are very minor and others have major consequences for life on Earth (major changes in global temperature / rainfall will have dramatic impacts on habitable areas, viability of agriculture, etc). All of them are inter-related, some interactions have positive feedback loops, others have negative feedback.

All of the evidence indicates that anthropogenic climate change is rapid (not quite as fast as change due to asteroid strike, but orders of magnitude faster than most of the non-cataclysmic natural changes), wide-spread (i.e. global), and significant (several degrees warming over a time-scale of decades to a couple of centuries). Ignoring cataclysmic events (such as the asteroid strike which took out the dinosaurs), the natural cycles tend to take some millennia to achieve the same magnitude of change.

Humanity and civilisation evolved with the climate pretty much as it has been over the last few millennia, so that is arguably "how climate on earth should be" (for the good of mankind). It seems obvious to me that to allow an artificial change process to occur which is orders of magnitude faster than the natural cycles which we have evolved / adapted to live with is NOT "how climate on earth should be"!

 
Panther140,

The medieval warming period is centered around ~950 CE to 1200 CE, so I’m not sure what you are talking about. The 1400 year period completely encapsulates the Medieval Warm Period. Beyond that, you’ve failed to read the abstract of the PAGES 2K paper that clearly states: “There were no globally synchronous multi-decadal warm or cold intervals that define a worldwide Medieval Warm Period”. Furthermore, you’ve failed to acknowledge the fact that the last 30 year period has been much warmer than 1971 to 2000 and the rate of warming completely outpaces that of the Medieval Warm Period, all during a period of decreasing solar activity.

Regarding a bigger picture, see Shakun et al 2012 for a longer timeline (graphical results here). You can connect PAGES 2K onto the end of Shakun et al 2012 and then instrumental data onto the end of PAGES 2K for a big picture. Some call it the “wheel chair” graph, where the last interglacial period is the wheel, the Holocene is the seat and modern temperatures represent the steep back.

As I said, the “right” climate for any organism is the temperature in which it developed. Departures from that are problematic. Rapid departures are even worse. So the “right” climate for humans is the period in which modern civilizations developed – the ~10,000 year period of relatively stable climate called the Holocene. So IRstuff’s “just about right” statement is an inversion of adaptionist thinking. It's not that the climate is "just about right" for our civilizations, our civilizations have been built to be "just about right" for the climate. The same goes for the biosphere - it's evolved to be "just about right" for the climate.

But in a 100 year span the planet has warmed 1 deg C (and ~0.75 deg C since 1950). Compare that to 8 deg C warming over 60,000 years during the Permian mass extinction event or the 3.5 deg C warming over ~10,000 years during the last interglacial period (both of which were driven by increases in atmospheric CO2, by the way).

To claim that it “climate sensitivity is low” or “it won’t be bad” works against the fact “it’s changed before”. When “it’s changed before” it’s usually because of changes in CO2 and past changes (that are orders of magnitude slower than changes today) led to drastic changes to the biosphere and topology of the planet.

As I said before, “it’s changed before” is a really, really bad argument against climate change mitigation and a very strong argument in support of climate change mitigation. The reason you (and others) keep trying to use it as an argument against climate change mitigation demonstrates a lack of understanding on the subject.
 
Seems to me that we're getting hung up on a blame game, which is mostly irrelevant. As I see it, there are 3 basic questions:

> Is the climate changing -- Yes. There are only a few head-in-the-sand people who still refuse to accept that
> Did humans cause this -- Who cares? The issue is really the 3rd question:
> Can we do anything about it -- For sure. Merely 40 years ago, we were concerned about unleashing a nuclear war that would lead to a nuclear winter. If that's not anthropogenic climate change, someone needs to get a better dictionary.

So, it's pretty clear then. When we get to that point of no return, we set off about 300 or so Hiroshima-level firestorms, which should drastically drop global temperatures. So, be happy, don't worry...

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //faq731-376 forum1529
 
I agree with IRstuff, and wonder why we are looking at over the top economic measures. I guess we could call these measures economic cooling, or economic change.

If you want to do something then propose something that is more economic neutral, and it will be more widely accepted.

 
I agree with cranky108. You don't need to cut down business. Plant trees.

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
 
I'll entertain the opposition for a minute and help you reach a non-destructive non-intrusive solution to your alleged problem.

Privately owned biofuel farms. Not publically traded. Not government organizations.

Syngas is net carbon zero. You can make syngas out of anything carbon based. Old cheeseburger? Throw it in the syngassifier. Used TP? same. Grass clippings? Dead tree you found in the road = Gas for months.

The question is a matter of how to sustainably grow vegetation to accommodate running purely off of carbon-zero syngas. I think we could accomplish this massive amount of plant life with some sort of.. Dare I say... GREENHOUSE effect. Imagine the mass amounts of plants we could have if the globe were a greenhouse. No more world hunger. No more homeless people freezing to death. Sounds like a liberal's utopia.

Back on subject. I am mainly interested in syngas because I could keep my fuel supply chain extremely local no matter where I go. I really don't like relying so heavily on the supply chain of the oil industry. Its discomforting to rely on such a volatile industry for the basis of our economy.
 
"Imagine the mass amounts of plants we could have if the globe were a greenhouse. No more world hunger."

Sure, we can imagine anything, even warp drive to escape to another planet or solar system. If the entire planet were all at the same temperature, and that temperature is warmish, then we'd have all of our coastal cities under water. Ignoring that, the lesson from our ongoing experiment in ethanol has demonstrated that market forces will drive up the cost of any plants that are used for fuel instead of food. If you think that the "market" will solve all those issues, that's even more unbelievable than AGW, by far, and that, we have 4000 years of recorded history to back that up. According to the US uses 51% of its land area for agriculture already.

Ethanol production currently uses 3552 million bushels of corn annually.

The US uses 20 million barrels of oil per day. When that energy content is converted to bushels of corn, we get 19702 million bushels of equivalent of corn PER DAY. So, we would need to harvest about 2000 times the amount of corn we currently produce to completely replace all of the oil consumption we currently have.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //faq731-376 forum1529
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top