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The saga of Ed Turner 9
- Thread starter JAE
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Slugger926
Bioengineer
Lets not forget that Mr. Turner was in a highly political situation. Who knows what else was going on in the buddy-buddy situation of a small city govornment. The head guy was creating positions and appointing people ahead of Mr. Turner who did not have any engineering background.
The same things happen within big corporations as well. Usually the big corporation will at least hire the outside engineering firm anytime drawings need to be stamped because they want to pass on the responsibility anytime something could go wrong.
The same things happen within big corporations as well. Usually the big corporation will at least hire the outside engineering firm anytime drawings need to be stamped because they want to pass on the responsibility anytime something could go wrong.
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- #22
The range of options available to Mr. Turner were pretty limited by city budgets, cannons of ethics, and apparent attitudes of superiors. One avenue that is always available to a manager in city government is to describe the circumstances and his concerns in writing to the City Attorney and ask for a ruling. The City Attorney would have looked at the issues we're raising here and make a recommendation that either: (1) Mr. Turner's review and correction of the plans did constitute "responsible charge" under Idaho's laws or: (2) that the administrators were asking him to violate the law. Getting that ruling would have put him on solid ethical and legal ground. Not getting it put him in the position of defying his superiors without a clear indication that they ever fully understood all of the issues involved (if that indication had existed he probably would not have lost his first suit even with a bumbling lawyer).
The resulting actions were very sad, but the whole process was so unnecessary. If you don't have access to a free attorney in a situation like Mr. Turner's, then it is worth a few hundred dollars to get a legal opinion in writing prior to falling on your sword over an ethical issue.
David
The resulting actions were very sad, but the whole process was so unnecessary. If you don't have access to a free attorney in a situation like Mr. Turner's, then it is worth a few hundred dollars to get a legal opinion in writing prior to falling on your sword over an ethical issue.
David
MintJulep "His mistake was resigning. Had he stuck it out he might have had a shot at getting fired, in which case he would have had a much stronger case."
I don't think that your assumption that sticking with the job would make a better legal case. If he had stayed, it could easily be argued in court that Mr. Truner was not overly uncomfortable in his new position, and thus was not unduly discriminated for his refusal to sign the documents (or any other reasons not discussed in the article).
I don't think that your assumption that sticking with the job would make a better legal case. If he had stayed, it could easily be argued in court that Mr. Truner was not overly uncomfortable in his new position, and thus was not unduly discriminated for his refusal to sign the documents (or any other reasons not discussed in the article).
The most recent issue of ASHRAE Journal has an article on Engineering Ethics which is petty good reading.
Ken
TXiceman
Ken
TXiceman
The one point raised was having an independent consultant come in, " . . . review, evaluate, correct as necessary & maybe even seal the plans . . ." This is a good option until it comes to sealing the plans. An outside consultant could write a report that the plans as submitted have been reviewed, checked and even corrected in a fashion, and stamp his report; but he couldn't, in my view, ever consider signing off on the plans - for they were done under his direction. Interestingly, if he were to review the plans, wouldn't he have to write the engineer and advise him that he was doing so? If so, to whom would the review engineer write?
I agree with the main consensus that this is a toughie from the purely ethical point of view but probably could have been handled somewhat more cautiously at the very beginning of the "administrator's" appointment where the administrator could have been 'educated' a bit. No question it is the "old boy's network" at play.
I agree with the main consensus that this is a toughie from the purely ethical point of view but probably could have been handled somewhat more cautiously at the very beginning of the "administrator's" appointment where the administrator could have been 'educated' a bit. No question it is the "old boy's network" at play.
SlideRuleEra
Structural
BigH - IMHO an outside consultant could be given unusually broad authority in this situation for a key reason: Mr. Turner worked for a "public entity", not a private employer. Since Mr. Turner chose to "withdraw" from the project, his management could simply remove his name from the drawings (without notifying him) and turn over responsibility to someone else (the proposed outside consultant). Exactly when the plans were prepared (before the consultant was hired in this case) is not an issue if the consultant has full authority to accept, reject, or make changes as necessary.
I worked for "public entities" for much of my career, this kind of things happens - for numerous reasons.
![[reading]](/data/assets/smilies/reading.gif "[reading] [reading]")
I worked for "public entities" for much of my career, this kind of things happens - for numerous reasons.
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
Obvious question: If the licensed engineer of record for a major project happens to die just before stamping the plans, what happens?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
davidbeach
Electrical
You hope he/she was working with an associate who is also licensed and could also sign the plans. It's a risk that firms have to deal with. If the EOR was a lone wolf, the client gets it in the shorts.
So if the one and only licenced engineer on the project is hit by a bus on his way in to put his stamp on the project, the team he supervised need to redo all the work with someone else supervising in order for the new licensed engineer to legally sign it off? I hope its not a busy bus route!
- Thread starter
- #31
That does bring up a good, but off-topic, question. We've had cases where the intended EOR on a project left the firm and the project was either not yet sealed or was under construction where on-going design decisions were still coming in.
In those cases, we assigned a new PE and notified the client of what happened. The new PE, of course, had to "get their head into the project" so that they would have a good handle on future decisions. But I don't recall the new PE's ever re-doing all the calculations.
In those cases, we assigned a new PE and notified the client of what happened. The new PE, of course, had to "get their head into the project" so that they would have a good handle on future decisions. But I don't recall the new PE's ever re-doing all the calculations.
Perhaps the firms, agencies and their clients who put a single PE on those projects requiring a stamp should consider ensuring the lives of those PEs. As for leaving mid-project; it seems the leaving PE would have an ethical obligation to at least bargain in good faith for continuing to supervise the project as a consultant until plans can be stamped. If not; well, how else are we going to keep all the lawyers employed?
If I have to choose between a PE (Mr Turner) and some non-engineer manager (with who knows what qualifications), I choose Mr Turner. His PE stamp belongs to him alone and he has no obligation to any employer who asks him to use it in a manner that is in violation of state laws. My employer has on occasion asked me to do the same, and I steadfastly refuse.
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