Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations TugboatEng on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
The Tragedy of General Motors -- Fortune article 4
- Thread starter kenvlach
- Start date
- Status
GregLocock
Automotive
GM tried a DOHC (the LT 5) and convincingly demonstrated that it was not a good move.
If you look at what people want from a Corvette the pushrods are not the problem. I agree the disgusting rear suspension could be retired, I suspect there are a few egos on the line on that one. I don't know if the leaf spring puts customers off.
Every new Corvette that is brought out is greeted by a ra-ra chorus from the usual suspects - "now we have a sportscar the equivalent of any Euro (or Japanese) supercar".
Well, that sort of blinkered approach is precisely the problem. Any goddamn fool can walk up to a Ferrari or a Porsche or an NSX or even a Lotus and see attention to detail in the interior that blows the Corvette away. Build quality on most Corvettes is also pretty daggy.
Also bear in mind that GM has been on the verge of closing Corvette down for the last 20 years (off and on), and you'll start to understand the problem. The only one of their products we can be bothered to talk about is the one they want to kill.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
If you look at what people want from a Corvette the pushrods are not the problem. I agree the disgusting rear suspension could be retired, I suspect there are a few egos on the line on that one. I don't know if the leaf spring puts customers off.
Every new Corvette that is brought out is greeted by a ra-ra chorus from the usual suspects - "now we have a sportscar the equivalent of any Euro (or Japanese) supercar".
Well, that sort of blinkered approach is precisely the problem. Any goddamn fool can walk up to a Ferrari or a Porsche or an NSX or even a Lotus and see attention to detail in the interior that blows the Corvette away. Build quality on most Corvettes is also pretty daggy.
Also bear in mind that GM has been on the verge of closing Corvette down for the last 20 years (off and on), and you'll start to understand the problem. The only one of their products we can be bothered to talk about is the one they want to kill.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Try buying a Ferrari, Porche, NSX, etc for the same price as a Corvette. They aren't even comparable. The corvette and the DCX viper both give some pretty awsome performance for the price tag. Personally, I would much rather sacrific a little fit and finish to put the car in a realistic price bracket. The problem is the mid and upper mid class market that buys vettes is ever so shrinking.
I agree, for a car like this, pushrods is the way to go; and if the suspension can still be a class leader, leave it be. The majority of the people that buy this car won't notice anyway.
I do like the what GM is doing with the V series Caddies.
Hey is it true the LaCross might get a Northstar. I was hurt when the killed olds and we lost the auroa.
I agree, for a car like this, pushrods is the way to go; and if the suspension can still be a class leader, leave it be. The majority of the people that buy this car won't notice anyway.
I do like the what GM is doing with the V series Caddies.
Hey is it true the LaCross might get a Northstar. I was hurt when the killed olds and we lost the auroa.
Shredcheddar
Mechanical
I hope Mitsubishi doesn't feel the same way (about the Evo). Although they may kill it anyways with the new "X." Just being cynical here.
While pushrods may be what Corvette customers want (if they care), at some point I think you've definitely got to try again with a technology that is, simply put, superior. It would be a shame for engineers to lower or water down their performance standards in the name of "tradition" (see the Ford Mustang and SRA).
I agree about build quality and fit-and-finish. GM hasn't proven that they're interested in providing top-notch stuff, IMO. Take a peek into any new Saturn or Pontiac and then go take a look at a comperable Toyota or Honda -- the difference is astounding.
Yeah, if Chevy wants to put the Corvette into the true supercar realm, it's gotta get away from crappy suspension and pedestrian interior design. These parts of the car certainly do work as it is, but there's nothing "super" about it.
While pushrods may be what Corvette customers want (if they care), at some point I think you've definitely got to try again with a technology that is, simply put, superior. It would be a shame for engineers to lower or water down their performance standards in the name of "tradition" (see the Ford Mustang and SRA).
I agree about build quality and fit-and-finish. GM hasn't proven that they're interested in providing top-notch stuff, IMO. Take a peek into any new Saturn or Pontiac and then go take a look at a comperable Toyota or Honda -- the difference is astounding.
Yeah, if Chevy wants to put the Corvette into the true supercar realm, it's gotta get away from crappy suspension and pedestrian interior design. These parts of the car certainly do work as it is, but there's nothing "super" about it.
GregLocock
Automotive
AXP, you have completely missed my point. If you want to compete with supercars, then build one. If you just want to build a rather poor quality exciting looking very fast car with reasonable handling and lousy ride, then build that. But don't kid yourself, and don't try and kid the customer. R&T and C&D have a lot to answer for.
The actual demographic that buys new Corvettes is 'interesting', if I can find an on-line reference I'll post it. Sure isn't your average Porsche driver. Social class B/C 50 years olds.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
The actual demographic that buys new Corvettes is 'interesting', if I can find an on-line reference I'll post it. Sure isn't your average Porsche driver. Social class B/C 50 years olds.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Shredcheddar
Mechanical
Really, if you're already buying a Corvette, a 911 or NSX isn't really that far out of reach as far as pricing is concerned.
Also, Viper performance for the price tag? It's in the same price bracket as the cars you listed above... and then you say it's as bang-for-your-buck as the Corvette.
Also, Viper performance for the price tag? It's in the same price bracket as the cars you listed above... and then you say it's as bang-for-your-buck as the Corvette.
patprimmer
New member
Come on guys.
The Corvette satisfies a NITCH market.
To deviate from a nitch to take on a bigger market is fraught with danger.
I expect that in the USA a Corvette is somewhat cheaper that most serious European sports cars, and will certainly beat them re some aspects of performance, and reliability and maintenance cost.
I am not familiar with the exact layout of the Corvette think there is a lot more to suspension design than just the style of spring, as the spring on nearly any half reasonable modern sports car suspension only effects vertical movement, all other movement like toe, camber and caster change, and lateral and longitudinal movement is controlled by arms, not springs.
I think that the spin off market image from nitch products can be quite valuable to the overall company market performance.
Re overall performance bang for bucks, the Japanese turbo sports cars like the Toyota Supra and Nissan Skyline are hard to beat, but I don't think that Corvettes appeal to Skyline buyers.
Just as an aside, The car that is currently (still I think) made in Australia, and sold in the USA as a Pontiac GTO, regularly wins a strictly production car race at our Mount Panorama circuit. This is a tough road race circuit that goes over a mountain. The 7 litre version of the Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO regularly beats Ferrari, Porsche and Nissan's best on this track under these rules. The finish is a bit rough, it has a carbon fibre panel where the rear seat should be, it has no radio nor A/C. It does have real big Brembro brakes though. Oh yes, it also cost A$250,000 when the standard 6 litre version cost A$50,000 with CD stacker and A/C and back seat.
The point, every car has for and against, and every car has its nitch or spot.
In my opinion, the secret to staying in business is to identify notches you can fill while keeping customers happy enough to pay enough for you to make a profit. This is a complex mix of image, performance re all sorts of parameters, cost to buy and cost to own.
You can get away with (or even appear to expand on) low cost to buy, but high cost to own for a while, but you will eventually test the loyalty of your customers beyond their endurance.
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
The Corvette satisfies a NITCH market.
To deviate from a nitch to take on a bigger market is fraught with danger.
I expect that in the USA a Corvette is somewhat cheaper that most serious European sports cars, and will certainly beat them re some aspects of performance, and reliability and maintenance cost.
I am not familiar with the exact layout of the Corvette think there is a lot more to suspension design than just the style of spring, as the spring on nearly any half reasonable modern sports car suspension only effects vertical movement, all other movement like toe, camber and caster change, and lateral and longitudinal movement is controlled by arms, not springs.
I think that the spin off market image from nitch products can be quite valuable to the overall company market performance.
Re overall performance bang for bucks, the Japanese turbo sports cars like the Toyota Supra and Nissan Skyline are hard to beat, but I don't think that Corvettes appeal to Skyline buyers.
Just as an aside, The car that is currently (still I think) made in Australia, and sold in the USA as a Pontiac GTO, regularly wins a strictly production car race at our Mount Panorama circuit. This is a tough road race circuit that goes over a mountain. The 7 litre version of the Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO regularly beats Ferrari, Porsche and Nissan's best on this track under these rules. The finish is a bit rough, it has a carbon fibre panel where the rear seat should be, it has no radio nor A/C. It does have real big Brembro brakes though. Oh yes, it also cost A$250,000 when the standard 6 litre version cost A$50,000 with CD stacker and A/C and back seat.
The point, every car has for and against, and every car has its nitch or spot.
In my opinion, the secret to staying in business is to identify notches you can fill while keeping customers happy enough to pay enough for you to make a profit. This is a complex mix of image, performance re all sorts of parameters, cost to buy and cost to own.
You can get away with (or even appear to expand on) low cost to buy, but high cost to own for a while, but you will eventually test the loyalty of your customers beyond their endurance.
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
I recently read that they are considering dropping the GTO from US sales. It is a shame, as I have only read good things about it's performance. They blew it though trying to evoke a reborn GTO. It looks nothing at all like it.
They should have done what Ford did with the new Mustang, but one better. More style than substance, the Mustang still has a solid rear axle for example. If they could have spent a little more effort with the styling, I think that the GTO would have been a huge hit.
As for the Corvette, there is just something visceral about driving such a monster that is very difficult to describe, but which keeps it such an icon here in the US.
They should have done what Ford did with the new Mustang, but one better. More style than substance, the Mustang still has a solid rear axle for example. If they could have spent a little more effort with the styling, I think that the GTO would have been a huge hit.
As for the Corvette, there is just something visceral about driving such a monster that is very difficult to describe, but which keeps it such an icon here in the US.
Prices of Corvettes, Porsches, Ferraris, etc., are too high for a young kid like myself. Younger mechanical guys will stick with "tuners" that for about $25K (bought used & mod'ed) will keep pace with production sports cars. Or guys like myself who prefer sportbikes. For under $15K, I can buy a bulletproof Honda/Yamaha/Kawi/Suz/Triumph, full leathers, soft luggage, an iPod integration system for the helmet, radar detector...you get the point...and have a daily commuter which will blow the doors off most cars on the road or in the twisty stuff. And that includes Porsches & 'Vettes. Now if only that global warming phenom could make summer come year 'round in WI, I'd be set....
Basically, I think GM & Ford are starting to get that point, but I do think they tend to focus their marketing in a particular year to certain demographics...which unfortunately is usually older. It's great for your books in the short term, but doesn't help to build that brand loyalty that many of the Japanese have developed over time. But that's management. And with American auto manufacturers' decisions partially influenced by quarterly stock prices, I don't see that long-term vision or planning coming in the near future.
Basically, I think GM & Ford are starting to get that point, but I do think they tend to focus their marketing in a particular year to certain demographics...which unfortunately is usually older. It's great for your books in the short term, but doesn't help to build that brand loyalty that many of the Japanese have developed over time. But that's management. And with American auto manufacturers' decisions partially influenced by quarterly stock prices, I don't see that long-term vision or planning coming in the near future.
If you're willing to go with the 15-year old vehicle, sure (NADA on a '92 with 50K miles in my area is just under $15K). But the $25K gets you a slightly used tuner, money for turbos, soundsystem upgrades, etc. Although to be honest, I can't stand that high-rev'ing lawnmower-sounding exhaust. No doubt, if you're considering current sports car values, the Corvette is a bargain. I like Porsches too, but not enough to pay the price of two Corvettes for one. Even used and 15 years old they're expensive.
And trust me, $15K for the sportbike includes a LOT of high-end accessories. Dealer price on a Triumph Daytona 675 is around $9500, and about $10ish for a new YZF-R6. The liters run about $11-12K. Used is a steal. 4-5 year old bikes go for $4-$6K, many with less than 10,000 miles on the odometer. And you can actually still work on them without too much difficulty.
Sorry for the thread-jack...game on.
And trust me, $15K for the sportbike includes a LOT of high-end accessories. Dealer price on a Triumph Daytona 675 is around $9500, and about $10ish for a new YZF-R6. The liters run about $11-12K. Used is a steal. 4-5 year old bikes go for $4-$6K, many with less than 10,000 miles on the odometer. And you can actually still work on them without too much difficulty.
Sorry for the thread-jack...game on.
patprimmer
New member
They might not be cutting edge, but they are very cheap and easy to hotrod if they are pre gen 111. There is a vast array of aftermarket and ex NASCAR performance parts at very low prices.
I am surprised by the comment that bikes are faster in curves than cars.
Maybe a superbike vs an everyday car, but apples for apples I doubt it.
My memories from a miss spent youth are that it was only my fastest ever car that would regularly beat the super bikes for acceleration, with the car having less advantage for the first 100 yards, but gaining more advantage as the speeds increased, but when it came to curves, virtually any of my hot rodded street cars could catch the bikes in the curves. Concern for the riders safety often prevented overtaking in the curve.
Are their any race tracks where cars and bikes race on the exact same track, and if so, what are the relative lap times.
What has this got to do with survival of GM.
Brand loyalty evolves from the stage of life where we might be miss spending our youth.
Durable design, simplicity of design and legacy of main mechanical parts all help the kids on a budget. This then influences the opinion of them and even their more conservative friends for years to come. It was the case with the VW Beetle, the "T" model Ford, the Small Block Chev and the current Nissan Skylines, and I expect it had an influence on the popularity of these brands for the next decade or two.
Styling is also a major issue, but that is very short term and is independent of "brand loyalty".
Sorry for the rave. Just my version of "the world according to Pat".
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
I am surprised by the comment that bikes are faster in curves than cars.
Maybe a superbike vs an everyday car, but apples for apples I doubt it.
My memories from a miss spent youth are that it was only my fastest ever car that would regularly beat the super bikes for acceleration, with the car having less advantage for the first 100 yards, but gaining more advantage as the speeds increased, but when it came to curves, virtually any of my hot rodded street cars could catch the bikes in the curves. Concern for the riders safety often prevented overtaking in the curve.
Are their any race tracks where cars and bikes race on the exact same track, and if so, what are the relative lap times.
What has this got to do with survival of GM.
Brand loyalty evolves from the stage of life where we might be miss spending our youth.
Durable design, simplicity of design and legacy of main mechanical parts all help the kids on a budget. This then influences the opinion of them and even their more conservative friends for years to come. It was the case with the VW Beetle, the "T" model Ford, the Small Block Chev and the current Nissan Skylines, and I expect it had an influence on the popularity of these brands for the next decade or two.
Styling is also a major issue, but that is very short term and is independent of "brand loyalty".
Sorry for the rave. Just my version of "the world according to Pat".
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
GregLocock
Automotive
Phillip Island. Even the taxicab racers (V8s) are faster than most bikes.
Lap record for a bike is 1m 30.33, car is 1m24.22
As you say, bikes are slower round corners, for good, physics related, reasons.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Lap record for a bike is 1m 30.33, car is 1m24.22
As you say, bikes are slower round corners, for good, physics related, reasons.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
- Thread starter
- #37
Recent GM news for comments.
"GM to Sell Majority Stake in GMAC for $14 Billion
By Jesus Sanchez, [Los Angeles] Times Staff Writer
3:54 PM PDT, April 3, 2006
General Motors today announced the sale of a majority stake in its profitable financing unit, GMAC, to an investment group for $14 billion in a deal that will give the ailing automaker a badly needed cash infusion to help turn around its money losing North American operations.
The sale of 51% of GMAC to a consortium led by the investment firm Cerberus Capital Management is part of a sweeping overhaul by Detroit-based GM to slash operating costs and boost sales in the face of intense competition from foreign rivals. Last month, GM offered to buy out more than 100,000 of its unionized workers as part of the recovery program.
..."
"Auto Sales Expected to Mirror Recent Trend
From Reuters
April, 3 2006
U.S. sales of vehicles are expected to have followed a familiar path last month, with General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. losing market share to nimble foreign rivals led by Toyota Motor Corp., analysts said.
Toyota and other Asian automakers have been relentlessly stealing U.S. sales from Ford and GM, which have been struggling with excess inventory and a shift in buyers' tastes from larger sport utility vehicles.
...
"Buick Sales Epitomize GM's Woes
The company ignored warnings 20 years ago that changes were needed. Is it too late?
By John O'Dell, [Los Angeles] Times Staff Writer
April 2, 2006
Buick was the seed from which General Motors Corp. sprouted. And for generations, the luxury car line was one of GM's most bountiful divisions.
The Buick brand filled a crucial niche for the auto giant, attracting well-heeled consumers who wanted more than an Oldsmobile but weren't comfortable with the flash of a Cadillac.
Now as GM faces the threat of bankruptcy, Buick has emerged as an emblem of the auto giant's broader woes. GM sold nearly a million Buicks in the U.S. in 1984. By last year, sales had sputtered to 282,288, a 70% decline over two decades, the biggest of any major auto brand.
Buick has broken down in U.S. showrooms for the same reasons that Americans deserted GM brands such as Chevrolet, Pontiac and Olds in favor of Toyota, Honda and Nissan.
Buick offered bland designs and ignored consumer demand for pickups, minivans and SUVs. Buyers' shift toward snappier styling, snazzier features and — most of all — higher-quality cars left Buick vulnerable in the late 1980s when Lexus, Infiniti and other foreign luxury models invaded its home turf.
...
In the mid-1980s, a Burbank market research firm hired by the automaker warned that European and Japanese rivals were revving up to leave GM in the slow lane.
"The sounds of heavy armor can be heard in the suburbs, in what may be the final assault on General Motors' long-time stronghold, the luxury car market," the report from Vista Group said. If GM didn't satisfy car buyers' tastes for smoother handling, sleeker designs and fewer but more luxurious options, Buick would start losing customers to the new competitors. The Vista report proved prescient.
...
"They had this arrogant belief that when baby boomers turn 50, 'they belong to us,' and that just didn't happen,"
..."
[note: LA Times on-line articles are only free for 1 week]
--- So, will GM fritter the $14B away on downsizing & employee buyouts, or actually do something to improve sales, like improve engineering, fit & finish, MPG, styling...?
"GM to Sell Majority Stake in GMAC for $14 Billion
By Jesus Sanchez, [Los Angeles] Times Staff Writer
3:54 PM PDT, April 3, 2006
General Motors today announced the sale of a majority stake in its profitable financing unit, GMAC, to an investment group for $14 billion in a deal that will give the ailing automaker a badly needed cash infusion to help turn around its money losing North American operations.
The sale of 51% of GMAC to a consortium led by the investment firm Cerberus Capital Management is part of a sweeping overhaul by Detroit-based GM to slash operating costs and boost sales in the face of intense competition from foreign rivals. Last month, GM offered to buy out more than 100,000 of its unionized workers as part of the recovery program.
..."
"Auto Sales Expected to Mirror Recent Trend
From Reuters
April, 3 2006
U.S. sales of vehicles are expected to have followed a familiar path last month, with General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. losing market share to nimble foreign rivals led by Toyota Motor Corp., analysts said.
Toyota and other Asian automakers have been relentlessly stealing U.S. sales from Ford and GM, which have been struggling with excess inventory and a shift in buyers' tastes from larger sport utility vehicles.
...
"Buick Sales Epitomize GM's Woes
The company ignored warnings 20 years ago that changes were needed. Is it too late?
By John O'Dell, [Los Angeles] Times Staff Writer
April 2, 2006
Buick was the seed from which General Motors Corp. sprouted. And for generations, the luxury car line was one of GM's most bountiful divisions.
The Buick brand filled a crucial niche for the auto giant, attracting well-heeled consumers who wanted more than an Oldsmobile but weren't comfortable with the flash of a Cadillac.
Now as GM faces the threat of bankruptcy, Buick has emerged as an emblem of the auto giant's broader woes. GM sold nearly a million Buicks in the U.S. in 1984. By last year, sales had sputtered to 282,288, a 70% decline over two decades, the biggest of any major auto brand.
Buick has broken down in U.S. showrooms for the same reasons that Americans deserted GM brands such as Chevrolet, Pontiac and Olds in favor of Toyota, Honda and Nissan.
Buick offered bland designs and ignored consumer demand for pickups, minivans and SUVs. Buyers' shift toward snappier styling, snazzier features and — most of all — higher-quality cars left Buick vulnerable in the late 1980s when Lexus, Infiniti and other foreign luxury models invaded its home turf.
...
In the mid-1980s, a Burbank market research firm hired by the automaker warned that European and Japanese rivals were revving up to leave GM in the slow lane.
"The sounds of heavy armor can be heard in the suburbs, in what may be the final assault on General Motors' long-time stronghold, the luxury car market," the report from Vista Group said. If GM didn't satisfy car buyers' tastes for smoother handling, sleeker designs and fewer but more luxurious options, Buick would start losing customers to the new competitors. The Vista report proved prescient.
...
"They had this arrogant belief that when baby boomers turn 50, 'they belong to us,' and that just didn't happen,"
..."
[note: LA Times on-line articles are only free for 1 week]
--- So, will GM fritter the $14B away on downsizing & employee buyouts, or actually do something to improve sales, like improve engineering, fit & finish, MPG, styling...?
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question