Thinking of quitting my chemist job to go back for a engineering 2

[Chem24]

I'm considering a career change into engineering, most likely mechanical. I'd like to hear what actual working engineers think about my plans and maybe add some insight.

I'll skip a ton for back story and just get to the details. I have a BS and MS in chemistry and I've been an organic chemist at a pharmaceutical company for a little over two years. I've pretty much made up my mind to quit my job and go back to school for mechanical or materials. I'm really leaning toward a MSME degree over the equivalent materials degree. I think that my MS in chem (inorganic specifically) is going to overlap a bit too much with materials. If I'm going to quit my job to do this I really want to be learning something new. I'm also hoping that having an MS in chem and ME would make it easy for me to find a job in either ME or materials.

That's plan A so far. Here's plan B:

For whatever reason I don't get accepted to a MS program I plan on getting a BS. The problem is that financial aid for a second BS is pretty much nonexistent. This will make it very expensive both in opportunity cost and paying tuition out of pocket. I've managed to save up enough to pay a few years of out of state tuition if it's needed. I've also heard that a BS might be required for me to eventually take the PE exam? I'm not completely sure what the value of the PE is so it's difficult to tell how this should factor into my decision.

 

[tygerdawg]

You'll need to polish your investigation & research skills that you should have learned getting your MS. Most if not all of these questions have been discussed on Eng-Tips before.

When getting my MS, one of my roommates was Chemist-wannabe-MechEngineer. He had to take all the ME classes (as prerequisites) before being accepted into MSME program. The very rigorous Southern school we were attending didn't allow short cuts, and rightly so.

Is likely MSME + Chem background could be very useful...in some very narrow segments of industry. Like plastics, for one. But that is the double-edged sword aspect of a MS: more skills & knowledge, less career options and flexibility (IMHO).

And IMHO, unless you are doing Public Sector design, a PE is not really necessary. I have found mine to be useful to discriminate myself from others and open doors that may not normally be accessible. But I have never had the need to stamp a drawing because most of my career has been spent in Manufacturing Engineering & Automation.

To be certain about requirements for MS, you should be discussing these things with your targeted university MechEngineering Department.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering

http://www.bluetechnik.com

 

[moltenmetal]

If you do find a school which will let you into a mech eng masters program without taking any mech eng undergrad courses, think twice about it. I wouldn't hire you as a mech eng without those courses- they're necessary to meaningful practice. You might be able to challenge 2-3 yrs worth out of 4 based on your chem background, if you're a good student.

 

[CRG]

The problem is that financial aid for a second BS is pretty much nonexistent. This will make it very expensive both in opportunity cost and paying tuition out of pocket.

I might get flagged for this off topic comment; but, how did we get to a point like this: whereas citizens allow our post-secondary education system to base education costs on anything other than the cost of services provided. Perhaps I am a fool for working and saving to pay my way through college instead of expecting others to pick up part of the tab. Do most engineers believe that government agencies should decide who should be over charged (those paying full tuition) and those who should be undercharged at the expense to those who pay full tuition. The term "finical aid" is a cover-up for the shell game enabling discriminatory practices that the government and many post-secondary education systems are involved with. This is central planning for social engineering. Many young engineers may falsely believe that central planning is good for the future because they have lost the will/effort required to be free and to be responsible for themselves.

 

[Chem24]

Thanks for the comments.

I'll definitely be contacting the department to get a better idea of the requirements. Their department website specifically says they have admitted people with chem degrees before so I would think they have a good idea of what remedial courses I'd need.

I expect to have to take several undergrad courses and I'd feel very unprepared for graduate research without them. My comment about course overlap was specifically in regards to the materials MS. My chem MS in inorganic is actually very similar. I took classes in polymers, X-ray diffraction and quantum mechanics. All of which were courses I saw listed as courses for the materials MS. That would be a best case scenario. I had trouble getting some graduate classes I took as an undergrad to count for my chem MS. Even though they were taken at the same university. I finally got the professors to allow me to register for the classes a second time (once in grad school) and they would just give me the same grade. It was kind of an off the books deal but they agreed that it was stupid for me to repeat a course that I already got an A in.

I didn't consider tuition to be a huge problem until I looked into it more. One school that I found looked perfect. They have a great BSME program that I would have no problems quitting my job to get. The problem, it's a private university. I always wondered who paid the ridiculous full price at private schools. I assumed it was the kids from very well off families who had no problem dropping $60k/yr for Jr. to be in school. Nope, if you already have a BS you do not get any financial support from the school. So none of those huge scholarships that every (nearly) student gets. Bottom line is tuition would cost me $60k/yr out of my pocket. Or worse from a private student loan. Don't get me started on those...

 

[TheTick]

Why go sideways or backwards? Perhaps there's a Ph.D. program willing to take you on?

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

What is your end goal? Being a Mech E? Or doing something that combines your chemistry background and some engineering? As you said, this second option sounds a lot like materials.

To me your chemistry background would make you a strong candidate for a materials engineering position, but I agree with you that getting a degree in MatSE would probably overlap too much with your previous degree.

If the goal is to be a straight forward Mech E, I would think the PE would be more important, but if you are looking to get in materials, I don't know too many PE in this field.

 

[Chem24]

I'm still looking into the PE thing and getting conflicting answers about it.

I'm pretty sure either way I go will leave me better of than trying to make a career of chemistry. The way I see it is that in three years I can be a new engineering grad looking for a job or a chemist looking for another 6 month temp job. I'd be lying if I didn't say part of this is about salary but for a little perspective I'm making $43k 3 years after my masters.

I got a email back from the school I'm looking at today. The director of graduate studies said I would need to take four undergrad courses. He also said that since I completed my MS chem degree from a well know school that I shouldn't have trouble being successful in the MSME program.

 

[moltenmetal]

My sympathies for discovering (a little late) that it's tough to get anywhere in chemistry with less than a PhD these days.

If you only took 4 undergrad engineering courses in the transition, I still wouldn't hire you as a mech eng, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

In my opinion, it'd be tough to work a mech eng unless you have a working knowledge of:
- fluid mechanics
- heat transfer
- mechanics of deformable solids (tough to jump right into that at the grad level if you don't have the undergrad fundamentals)
- fundamentals of structural and machine design (2-4 term courses there alone)
- thermo (you may have that, but a chemistry phys chem course is not the same as an engineering thermo course in focus or content)
- fundamentals of electricity and electronics

...and that's just off the top of my head.

Lots of people try to make the transition from the sciences to engineering in this "easy" way. People offering positions where your engineering skills are actually necessary will be on the look-out for that. This won't matter at all after you get your first real engineering job and succeed there for 2-5 years, but it could make it tough to get that first real engineering job.

I'd suggest that you take the extra year, work your @ss off and challenge for the undergrad engineering degree. Once you've got that, consider the Masters'. Or do what you want and roll the dice.

 

[Chem24]

Moltenmetal,


So if I understand you correctly you're saying that after taking four undergrad courses and an additional 30 credits of graduate engineering I'd still be better prepared to be an engineer had I just went straight for the BS? I'm not trying to call you out but your statement is very concerning to me. If that's really how people will see my MS degree then I might want to reconsider it.

One thing I've noticed is that there are very few job posting that list the MS as a requirement. Maybe I'm just too use to thinking of the BS as being a useless degree (as it pretty much is for chemistry). How useful is the BSME? Do I even need an MS to make a decent living in engineering or is it just viewed as 2 or so years of experience?

One big reason for me to go for the MS in the cost of tuition. The cost of a BS will pretty much clean out my savings. The MS on the other hand offers a tuition waver and stipend. In three years I could have a harder time finding a job with the MS but still have a good amount of savings to live off.

 

[Twoballcane]

I have a brother who has a BS in biology and chemistry; however, he had to take all or most of the ME classes (and higher forms of math such as differential equations and vector analysis) from sophomore to senior (without all of the humanities and such). But, the MS program he was in was design for cross over from other fields other than engineering. He was also smart (and sometimes dangers) to get into a niche field of Nanotechnology. I’d say after 6 to 8 years after graduating he is making six figures. I suggest looking for programs like this. This program was offered thru Boston University. He did come out with a hefty loan, but he (and like our entire family) lived modestly and paid down his loans including his wife’s.

I suggest to instead of going into the traditional roles of engineering (i.e. Heat Transfer, Thermal Dynamics, Structural, Fluids, HVAC…) that you get into a niche field like Nanotechnology, Robotics, BioMechanical…etc. Since you have degree and experience in Chemistry; combined with ME, you may have the potential to do some real good.


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”

 

[TheTick]

My dad was a Ph.D. organic chemist. His undergrad was in mechanical engineering.

Engineering is a field where you can make a good living with a BS. Chemistry seems to require MS just to get someone to spit on you.

 

[tygerdawg]

It's not simply the number of hours of required coursework.

It's the twisted, skewed, nerdy-engineer problem-solver mindset that survivors of an Engineering curriculum walk away with. Not everyone is cut out for it as the freshman & sophomore dropout rate attests. This is a life-altering attitude change that is drilled into you over the course of four or more years of late nights banging out homework problems and forcing analysis programs to work, neglecting your significant other, learning to work with other students as a team to complete assignments, and learning the meaning of "technical compromise & alternative solutions" when trying to complete projects under crazy deadline pressure. I cannot imagine any course of study that does this more effectively.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering

http://www.bluetechnik.com

 

[Chem24]

After looking at some of the courses for the BS and thinking about it, you guys are probably correct. I'd be missing out on a lot of stuff by going straight to the MS degree. My savings is going to have a tough time getting me through a BS though.

 

[FeX32]

I would never want to get another bachelors unless I felt the I absolutely hated my field or something. You could go to Europe, it's cheap (if not free), but this might be for European citizens only.

Also, don't discount the Ph.D. You can specialize in something mechanical and then get a research job in that field after. You could also get full funding and get paid to do the doctorate.

The BSME is one of the most powerful degrees on the planet. Nuff said


Fe

 

[moltenmetal]

It's been a long time and I have no idea what "30 credits" means in your millieu. But where I come from, you can get a M.Eng. with 8 one-term grad courses and a project, or a true M.A.Sc. with 4 1-term courses and a research thesis. 4 or 8 grad courses, even combined with 4 undergrad courses, are no substitute for an entire 4 year degree in engineering- even though you have probably half of it in overlap from your chem degree.

You could pidgeon-hole yourself as a nanotech person etc., but you'd better be prepared to move anywhere there is a job- and to retrain for something else yet again when the "buzzword of the month" goes out of favour. In a broader field such as materials, I can see many engineering employers noticing your lack of an undergrad eng degree.

As to the PhD in chemistry- that is a much longer haul.

 

[FeX32]

molten,

How is the PhD a longer haul? Ideally it should take 3-4 years vs. the 4 years of undergrad.
I presume if you include the post-doc and the fact that it may take longer than 4 years it's a little longer for his situation.
Agree?




Fe

 

[lacajun]

To clear up questions about the PE, review the website for your state. It is not the same across all 50 states. You'll probably have to take the FE and it will be pretty difficult to pass that without some of the undergrad engineering courses, in my opinion.

I worked with chemists who were always frustrated because they were never in charge of projects. I could see their point.

Good luck with your future!

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[moon161]

Your work for a pharmaceutical company would give you a leg up in a few industries i've worked in and with.

Medical product development: the FDA & other regulatory bodies prescribe design controls & product validation over many aspects of the product.

Medical contract manufacture. Similar, but closer to process engineering, validation & control.

Medical Lyophilizers are frequently huge, usually shiny capitol process machines that vacuum freeze dry (usually injectable) medications to enhance shelf life. Making small stuff is an aspect of mechanical engineering that is not much used where I work. Lots of controls, heat & mass transfer, piping, vacuum.

Since an MS is more topical than general and most useful as such, it would not be a bad idea to research and target an industry, then direct your education towards it.

One current area of research is how to nucleate/initiate freezing of high purity water in a smooth, static container (it usually doesn't freeze right away at 32 F).

If you contacted and aimed for an industry you would have something to shoot for and prospects to
develop during your education.

I can be reached @ moon161 at gmail.com

 

[moltenmetal]

FeX32: someone with an undergrad in science will take less than 4 yrs to get an undergrad in engineering, unless the undergrad in science was obtained a long time ago. They can challenge for about 1/2 the courses. So that makes the PhD in science a much longer haul. If you're thinking a PhD in engineering, the balance of my comments apply.

As to whether or not the longer haul is worth it, that'd be determined by the interests of the person taking it.