RocketRed
Civil/Environmental
- Aug 30, 2010
- 23
A bit of background about me (somehow this got really long):
Through some weird happenings and opportunities I find myself majority owner of a small land surveying company. I am partners in a small Civil/Structural firm which is my day job. Great work, great staff and no problems there. During the early mornings and evenings I am in the background of this survey company. My role there is basically General Manager, I have no technical duties, except I write the proposals which have technical aspects. It has been working great - the Surveyor and party chief are the other owners, and my presence allows them to focus solely on technical issues and get their work done. Our project turn around has decreased by 10 days compared to the prior owner where the surveyor/owner was also in charge of all things business. I have a new admin in place that runs the day to day, I stay big picture, do the marketing stuff, and step in if we get an unruly client, someone won't pay their bill, or is angry about a project. Since I have been there (1.3 years) we have done about 190 projects, and I would say we have had 5-6 mad clients. In every case it has been they were just bad clients, but I had to deal with them.
We of course do a lot of pre-design survey for engineering. I have used this survey firm for my engineering stuff for years and never had a problem with the work. I contacted a lot of the survey firm clients when we took over, and let them know that I was a part owner and that my other company was their competition. I have never stole a single client, or even told an engineer's client that I was an engineer. For one my engineering business has too much work, and for the other it is more important to me that the survey business is successful.
That's not the story but shows a little about where I am at.
In my engineering history, I have had geotechs make mistakes, surveyors miss an invert (etc), testing agencies give bad pachometer readings (etc), and lots of other minor technical errors. I have made my share as well. In all of these cases, my response has always been: 1) contact the offending party to verify the mistake, 2) honestly report to the owner regarding the blow), 3) allow the offending party the chance to repair the blow, and work out with the owner how the mistake gets fixed. I try to stay positive, be honest, and work as fast as humanly possible to fix the mistake. Most times, there is no charge and I have never really lost a client over a minor error. We have never called our E and O Insurance company in 15 years.
Last summer my survey crew did a pre-design survey on an 9 acre brushy parcel. This is for a client we have always gotten along great with, and love working for. We were not hired by the engineer but for the owner direct. Part of the project connected two existing manholes, and the field crew somehow did not get an invert right on the downstream manhole (we haven't gone on site to verify the blow yet). They also picked up a locate for a force main and it was apparently 7' off. This is not really their fault if the locator had made an error they just pick up the paint lines, obviously all utility surveys have the note that says "pothole to verify all utility information". These guys have done 50 topo/utility surveys for me and we never have had any issues.
This is where it gets weird:
Our last contact with the project was in September, the client came in and told us we are going to start construction staking next week so get a hold of the engineer. A week later I saw another surveyor out staking the project.
Then in December we got a letter from the client's lawyer stating that we had gotten the inverts wrong and the force main was 7' off, and pay us $30k for the error. No other technical data. We got no notice regarding the errors after they were discovered so that we could double check our notes, or even help out with any changes.
The upshot is that the sewer inverts still allowed gravity flow, just flatter, but not below the code minimums. Not even flat enough to change pipe size. I'm sure that the laterals were affected as well, and what I am hearing through the grapevine is that the engineer didn't make the changes very quickly (they were probably busy) and of course blamed the surveyor (who was at fault - I'm not denying the error) for the long timeline. In the process of the changes (which I have seen, any competent engineer could have made them in a day, any other in a week), which took too long - the owner lost a major lease for the property. The contractor filed a claim or change order as well, because the flatter pipe required more care in installation. Again I don't really have a problem with that as I could see a contractor bidding higher costs for a flatter pipe. They were sole sourced on this project, so bid items were not really used.
Anyway, I find the reaction of the project to be really weird. The engineer responded slowly but was able to keep the client while we are getting asked for $30k with absolutely no contact with anyone about the issues. I am in the position of responding to the lawyer letter and I really want to work this out with the owner in a direct manner. I hate that we are having to go back and forth through a lawyer. I have the revised design drawings in hand. Here is my current COA, let me know what you think about it:
- Get permission to enter site and have crew verify notes/data that we actually made the mistake
- Write letter admitting error (assuming that we did)
- Letter asking the following:
- Contact my E and O company to let them know something may be afoot.
Of course I can go back into the contract and pull out the weasel words and show the Lawyer, but I would really prefer to get this over with face to face and show the owner that we are not the kind of company who would hide behind an contract for a problem we made, but it may be too far down the path now to go back.
Thanks for reading!
Any thoughts or ideas about what I should do?
How do you folks handle it if a subconsultant makes an error? Especially if the Owner requires that you use a particular subconsultant?
Through some weird happenings and opportunities I find myself majority owner of a small land surveying company. I am partners in a small Civil/Structural firm which is my day job. Great work, great staff and no problems there. During the early mornings and evenings I am in the background of this survey company. My role there is basically General Manager, I have no technical duties, except I write the proposals which have technical aspects. It has been working great - the Surveyor and party chief are the other owners, and my presence allows them to focus solely on technical issues and get their work done. Our project turn around has decreased by 10 days compared to the prior owner where the surveyor/owner was also in charge of all things business. I have a new admin in place that runs the day to day, I stay big picture, do the marketing stuff, and step in if we get an unruly client, someone won't pay their bill, or is angry about a project. Since I have been there (1.3 years) we have done about 190 projects, and I would say we have had 5-6 mad clients. In every case it has been they were just bad clients, but I had to deal with them.
We of course do a lot of pre-design survey for engineering. I have used this survey firm for my engineering stuff for years and never had a problem with the work. I contacted a lot of the survey firm clients when we took over, and let them know that I was a part owner and that my other company was their competition. I have never stole a single client, or even told an engineer's client that I was an engineer. For one my engineering business has too much work, and for the other it is more important to me that the survey business is successful.
That's not the story but shows a little about where I am at.
In my engineering history, I have had geotechs make mistakes, surveyors miss an invert (etc), testing agencies give bad pachometer readings (etc), and lots of other minor technical errors. I have made my share as well. In all of these cases, my response has always been: 1) contact the offending party to verify the mistake, 2) honestly report to the owner regarding the blow), 3) allow the offending party the chance to repair the blow, and work out with the owner how the mistake gets fixed. I try to stay positive, be honest, and work as fast as humanly possible to fix the mistake. Most times, there is no charge and I have never really lost a client over a minor error. We have never called our E and O Insurance company in 15 years.
Last summer my survey crew did a pre-design survey on an 9 acre brushy parcel. This is for a client we have always gotten along great with, and love working for. We were not hired by the engineer but for the owner direct. Part of the project connected two existing manholes, and the field crew somehow did not get an invert right on the downstream manhole (we haven't gone on site to verify the blow yet). They also picked up a locate for a force main and it was apparently 7' off. This is not really their fault if the locator had made an error they just pick up the paint lines, obviously all utility surveys have the note that says "pothole to verify all utility information". These guys have done 50 topo/utility surveys for me and we never have had any issues.
This is where it gets weird:
Our last contact with the project was in September, the client came in and told us we are going to start construction staking next week so get a hold of the engineer. A week later I saw another surveyor out staking the project.
Then in December we got a letter from the client's lawyer stating that we had gotten the inverts wrong and the force main was 7' off, and pay us $30k for the error. No other technical data. We got no notice regarding the errors after they were discovered so that we could double check our notes, or even help out with any changes.
The upshot is that the sewer inverts still allowed gravity flow, just flatter, but not below the code minimums. Not even flat enough to change pipe size. I'm sure that the laterals were affected as well, and what I am hearing through the grapevine is that the engineer didn't make the changes very quickly (they were probably busy) and of course blamed the surveyor (who was at fault - I'm not denying the error) for the long timeline. In the process of the changes (which I have seen, any competent engineer could have made them in a day, any other in a week), which took too long - the owner lost a major lease for the property. The contractor filed a claim or change order as well, because the flatter pipe required more care in installation. Again I don't really have a problem with that as I could see a contractor bidding higher costs for a flatter pipe. They were sole sourced on this project, so bid items were not really used.
Anyway, I find the reaction of the project to be really weird. The engineer responded slowly but was able to keep the client while we are getting asked for $30k with absolutely no contact with anyone about the issues. I am in the position of responding to the lawyer letter and I really want to work this out with the owner in a direct manner. I hate that we are having to go back and forth through a lawyer. I have the revised design drawings in hand. Here is my current COA, let me know what you think about it:
- Get permission to enter site and have crew verify notes/data that we actually made the mistake
- Write letter admitting error (assuming that we did)
- Letter asking the following:
Why weren't we notified immediately?
What is the timeline for the error findings, change order, and engineering revisions?
What is the justification of the $30k, the inverts were fixed points?
Was potholing performed per our plan notes?
- Contact my E and O company to let them know something may be afoot.
Of course I can go back into the contract and pull out the weasel words and show the Lawyer, but I would really prefer to get this over with face to face and show the owner that we are not the kind of company who would hide behind an contract for a problem we made, but it may be too far down the path now to go back.
Thanks for reading!
Any thoughts or ideas about what I should do?
How do you folks handle it if a subconsultant makes an error? Especially if the Owner requires that you use a particular subconsultant?
![URL]](https://res.cloudinary.com/engtips/image/fetch/w_800,c_lfill,q_auto,f_auto,g_faces:center/[URL unfurl="true"]http://hi-tecdesigns.com/images/pictures/Footwell%20Animation%20Tiny.gif[/URL])
