tips for buying a new laser system 2

[Chuckk]

When buying a new laser system, (or any equipment for that matter) be sure to ask about replacement parts and tech support. Get their policy in writing!!! Also get in writing that the policy will not change after you buy their equipment!!!

As for replacement parts, be sure the system manufacturer has an open policy on buying parts. I can't see any reason why a manufacturer would not sell any part on the machine. Some manufacturers will not sell certain parts for "safety" reasons, or they feel the customer is not capable of replacing the part. There is no reason for this. Unless there's some state/federal law restricting access to an item, such as R12 refrigerant or hazardous chemicals, there is absolutely no reason for a manufacturer to hold back parts.

Granted, the manufacturer should not be expected to send out a huge box of parts and let the customer keep throwing them at the machine until the problem goes away as this isn't practical. The manufacturer would have to test any part that was tried on the machine before returning them to their stock.

There is also no reason for a manufacturer to not warranty a part if it was not installed by the manufacturers service personnel, unless the manufacturer can prove the customer damaged the part.

When your machine is down, what is the manufacturer's priority? Will the manufacturer help you get your machine back on line by whatever means, or will they use the opportunity to get some income for their service/parts department? Whatever they do, it sends a strong message to the customer as to whose machine they will buy when they need more capacity.

 

[krugtech]

I agree, some manufacturers like to tie parts to their technicians to make a little extra money. I don't agree with this at all. As for the liability argument- If my car falls on me while I'm changing the oil filter, can I sue Autozone? I don't think so. The manufacturers can always cover their butts with a waiver if they want to.

As for warrantying the part, this is a little tricky but it can be done in a manner that's fair to all parties. For instance- if I sold someone a pneumatic cylinder, maybe I would require them to buy a new filter for their air manifold before I would warranty the cylinder.

Customers don't like to be taken advantage of. My customers share some of their experiences with me on their efforts to get replacement parts for their machines. Being told in a round about way that you're too unsafe and uneducated to be able to buy a part without having a factory rep install it is a slap in the face.

The manufacturer may gain some service revenue, but they're fools to think their machine sales wont suffer after the customer gets slapped in the face enough. The manufacturer needs to show that they are truly willing to partner with the customer.

been there, done that, seen it all..... I think I know what the customer expects and who the customer feels comfortable giving their money to.

Chris



Chris Krug

http://krugtech.com/

 

[krugtech]

Chuckk, what is/are the company/companies you know of that are playing games with parts? I don't want to name any names, but I heard about someone last week who needed a part, a part they had changed many times in the past safely and successfully. When they went to order the part, they were all of a sudden told that it's unsafe for anyone but a trained technician to install the part and therefore they would only sell them the part if they arranged a service call. The bad part is it takes maybe an hour to change the part, but the machine was down for 2 weeks because there were "specially trained" technicians available.

How is the customer supposed to feel? Before the company's "safety" policy change, the customer would have their machine back on line in less than 24 hours, paying a few hundred for the part and overnight shipping. Now in the interest of "safety", they had to wait 2 weeks and spend a few thousand for a quick simple repair.

People remember these things when they need to buy more equipment. I wouldn't buy a machine from someone like that.

Chris Krug

http://krugtech.com/

 

[jetrep]

Gentlemen, I appreciate the posts...they are great food for thought.

However, hey would be far more useful if you would actually name the guilty companies. It is quite difficult to actually gather information about the various laser options...this is the only resource I have really found. Not naming names doesn't really do us any good as at the end of the day we are forced to gather information almost exclusively from salesmen...and we all know how worthless that can be!

 

[megabob77]

I typically just come here to lurk, but this poat hit a nerve. After reading the above posts, it sure sounds like they're talking about Bystronic. My employer has had Bystronic laser machines for a long long time. When Bystronic was bought out about ten years ago, things started going down hill. Don't get me wrong, they make a great machine, but their customer service has gone away.

When we first started using Bystronic lasers, we were very impressed with their service, but the new management seems to have screwed that up. We also have Trumpf lasers, while I can't say their service has been without issue, I can say I don't remember ever having issues with having a technician forced on us when we needed parts.

We have been told that the parts that we were at one time able to get without a technician are suddenly "too dangerous and complicated", therefore, a technician is required.

Until Bystronic stops holding their customers hostage with replacement parts, my employer will buy their equipment elsewhere.

Bystronic has shot themselves in the foot. In addition to loosing machine sales, they will soon realize they are hurting their parts sales as their parts policy has created a demand for an alternate unrestricted source of parts. we are finding this demand is being met.

We are in the USA

 

[megabob77]

Mr.Kyc,
I'm the poor slob trying to make parts with a Bystronic laser. With Bystronic, the technology is definitely there, it's the greed driven simple mistakes that are hurting everyone involved. You call that " Success in the north American market place"? Letting go of 20 or 30 people last year is success? (I miss Steve Charrier.... big mistake...)

There are 2 known independent service contractors here (who are excellent service people), what exactly is it that you find so interesting about this? Why are they here? Maybe they took an interest in helping their customers keep their lasers running, an interest that Bystronic does not make a priority.

You "welcome a personal discussion with any Bystronic owner or anyone considering the purchase of a laser system"?!?!?!?! How about a discussion with people who are not considering the purchase of a new laser system but looking for unrestricted access to replacement parts?

What "misconceptions" are you speaking of? Is it a misconception that Bystronic holds back parts?

Thank you for posting your contact info, I encourage everyone here to call Mr. Kyc and order a screen board for a 2800 watt machine. See what happens. If you get it, put it up on eBay for twice the price, it will sell right away.

What I find "interesting" is Mr. Kyc said absolutely nothing about Bystronics parts policy, which is pretty much the topic here.

Do you people at Bystronic make any effort at all to consider how you come across to the customer? Let me give you a hint- actions speak louder than words.

Here's another tip for Mr. Kyc and anyone else from Bystronic- unless you come here and announce a free and open parts policy, it would behoove you to stay out. Other than admitting your parts policy is extortion, there's nothing believable that you could say in response to this topic.

The do do is floating to the top, there's so much of it that you can't cover it all. If this is frustrating, all I can say is you get back what you dish out.

 

[Chuckk]

Peter Kyc,
Does Bystronic hold back replacement parts? Yes or no?

 

[jetrep]

I find it interesting that Mr. Kyc is critical of the independent service contractors. I find their input and opinions more valuable than almost all others. The opinion of those who have only experienced one brand is not very useful in comparison.

 

[megabob77]

Good point jetrep. Company robot drones vs front line fighters. Who's the wiser?....

 

[sdudley]

After reading through this thread its obvious whats going on if you read between the lines. A justifiably disgrunted bytronic owner, justifiably disgruntled independent service technicians and an defensive service manager....hhhmmm. Put all together it's clear. From what I have read it is illegal for companies to require you to purchase there service techs in order to purchase there parts. It is called an "unlawful tying arrangement", "tying", "tying arrangement" etc... This is a violation of anti-trust laws both federal and on the state level. These laws were enacted under the Sherman and Clayton acts . If anyone wants to google these terms you should be able to find info pretty easily. What this law states is that when a company forces someone to buy a product or service in order to get another product or service it is considered an "unlawful tying arrangement" and it is illegal. It's a form of "bait and switch". The government enacted this law to ward off monopolies and foster free enterprise competition. If a person or company is deemed guilty there can be fines and even jail time in some cases. If a company is sued for this and found guilty they have to make reparations to the plaintiff at 3x the plaintiff's damages plus lawyers fees ,plus a reasonable and fair amount of back interest as deemed by the courts based on recent interest rates. It is no joke to be found liable for this practice. If you read through the Sherman and clayton acts theres is also talk of unfair pricing to ward off competition as well as references to the refusal of warranties based on certain criteria . I would recomend to anyone having an issue getting parts to take a little time to read up on this issue and become more familiar with their LEGAL RIGHTS.

 

[krugtech]

Some laser manufacturers hold back some parts due to high voltage (HV) safety issues. This isn't really preventing that many from working on the HV section, it's just preventing them from getting parts from the manufacturer and getting their machine fixed. There ARE other sources of HV parts that don't seem to share the same paranoia that some of the laser manufacturers believe in.

I hate to see anyone get hurt. In the interest of safety I'd like to share some things I've learned about HV safety over the past years. This is by no means any kind of safety law. Rules and laws are up to your company safety officer. I'm just sharing what works for me and the rules I follow. Some safety rules get so out of hand that the simple basic things get lost in the mix. I think it's really important to focus on the simple dangers of the HV section. I repeat, this is what I go by, I take no responsibility. If what I'm about to say doesn't make any sense, then maybe you shouldn't go into the HV section. I welcome any criticism.

First off, If I ever believe for any reason that I've come into contact with an HV power source and received a shock, I plan on IMMEDIATELY getting my ass to a hospital. I'll get a ride or get an ambulance, I won't drive myself. When I get there, blood thinners, an EKG, blood chemistry work and maybe some Valium would be a good starting point. This is time critical.

As for going into the HV section- I will focus just on the high voltage, while the HV power might be secured, there still may be 220 VAC and or 24VDC control voltage present.

There are typically 2 items that heed to be secured in an HV section, the source of the HV, and any HV storage. There's 3 simple rules I follow when I secure the HV section so I can safely work on it.

rules:
1. Make sure the HV source is disabled. This is usually a transformer fed by 480 volts 3 phase.

2. Make sure the HV storage is discharged. This will typically be a large HV capacitor.

3. Make sure the HV storage capacitor stays discharged.

Very simple. Many people get 1 and 2 right but miss number 3.

What can go wrong? Lets look at number 1- You have to be absolutely sure that primary voltage WILL NOT make it to the HV transformer. I properly identify and shut off the breaker that feeds the HV transformer. You could lockout the machine but sometimes there is a need to go into the HV section with the control voltage active to do tests.

As for number 2- It's all about the grounding rod. Make sure it's mechanically and electrically sound. Look it over, give the wire a good yank to make sure it's not loose, then it hit with an ohmmeter to make sure it actually conducts to ground. The grounding rod is long for a reason, you hold the end that keeps your body parts as far away as possible from the HV danger. There is typically more than one grounding rod on a machine, ONLY the one that can reach the HV source and storage can make things safe, the other rods are good as a double check only. A common rule of thumb is to stay 10 mm for every 1,000 volts away from any live HV.

And number 3- Too many miss this one- Most of the capacitors are electrolytic. Just like the battery in your car, they WILL recover a charge after they've been run down. Typically there is a bank of resistors that will discharge this capacitor once the HV source is deactivated. If you hit that capacitor with the grounding rod and you get a discharge, those resistors are not working. The best thing to do here is to securely strap the output of the capacitor to ground. When these capacitors are shipped from the manufacturer, they have a wire connecting the output to ground for this very reason. Always assume a capacitor is charged.


I like to stay 4 or 5 steps away from getting hit by the high voltage. Sometimes when I'm rushing around I'll find myself a 1 or 2 steps from getting hit. When this happens I'll stop what I'm doing and reflect on how much I like living and make more of an effort to stay safe.

Now that I've shared what I feel is important, I'll share some of the other things I've come across over the years- Don't drink the electrolyte in the capacitors. Under certain conditions the ballast tubes can give off X-rays. Don't wrap HV cable around your neck. HV makes Ozone. Broken glass is sharp. Transformers are really heavy. Electrical parts can contain hazardous materials....... and so on and so on.....
If you decide to get out of bed in the morning, I in no way take any responsibility. I take none if you decide to stay in bed.......

Greedy lawyers, they make me crazy. Greedy anyone, same thing.

In addition to fixing machines, I train my customers on just about anything they need. Knowledge is safer than ignorance.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to contact me here or directly via the link in my signature.



Chris Krug

http://krugtech.com/

 

[megabob77]

Thanks for the tips Krugtech. Seems simple enough. Safety is knowledge and responsibility.

 

[Chuckk]

I'm getting really sick of the laser manufacturers not selling me parts without a tech. Something that should have been fixed with an overnight shipment and a day down was extorted into a week wait and many many times the cost. Some manufacturers have waivers to sign but it's pretty obvious that the problem here has to do with service revenue, not safety.

Don't buy any machines unless you have free and total access to any replacement/service parts!

 

[megabob77]

We went through this again this week. We were down a week because we were told we're not competent enough to replace a part we've replaced many times before. We have to replace it because it fails, not because we're stupid and are breaking it while we install it. Please sell me the parts! If you don't stop this nonsense soon, I'll go out of business from being bled dry and then I wont be able to give anyone any money anymore. I need to find a machine manufacturer who works with me instead of trying to rape me.

First question I ask when buying a machine is about access to parts and any basic tech info.

 

[cuttingedgelaser]

I have 3 Trumpf lasers and have never had this problem. My advice is to call the president of the company and tell him this is not right. The old saying is the squeky wheel gets the grease. call and complain, let them know you plan to buy another laser and it wont be the one they make. Trumpf has bent over backwards for me and personaly I would not go to another laser.

 

[megabob77]

cuttingedgelaser- Where are you located? The parts extortion policies seem to be different for different countries. In the USA, this falls into a legal grey area and while it could possible be successfully prosecuted, no one has the time and money and some actually fear they will piss off the manufacturer and suffer repercussions.

I've spoken with some new system owners. both bought a laser from Bystronic. One did as you suggested and was assured there will never be any restriction on any part whatsoever. The other new system owner was unable to get Bystronic to budge on their parts restrictions. Bystronic has no clue as to how they're coming across to the customer.

 

[cuttingedgelaser]

I am from the south east part of the us. Do you have any Trumpf lasers?

 

[Chuckk]

More parts extortion today. It's not like a slap in the face anymore, it's like getting hit with a bat and having your wallet stolen.

 

[Mitslaserman]

Funny how there is no response from P K! Not surprising since he rode Count Zakula's coat tails for so long! No wonder Bystronic is such a mess! I guess ole Pete needs to see the big picture!!!