To switch or not to switch?

[MusicEngineer]

Hello Eng-Tips! Every time I am faced with a challenging situation/decision in my career, I'm so glad I have access to this forum.

I know several of you are employees who have been in this situation and some of you are employers who have had to deal with employees in this situation. Any opinions, guidance and insight based on your personal experiences would be greatly appreciated.

I currently work for Company A and thinking about switching over to Company B. I started at A fresh out of my Masters degree as an entry level structural engineer slightly over 2.5 years ago. I recently came across an opening in Company B and applied. After several months of interviewing and talking with HR, I have finally received a very tempting offer from Company B.

Company A
Small, privately owned company (50+ employees) with a focus in mining and minerals.
Less money in company, dwindling jobs, but I have high level of responsibility.
Smaller projects, varied responsibility (I get to do structural, civil, some mechanical eng.).
I work directly with project managers and VPs. I know the CEO and upper management personally.
Lots of potential to move up and get more responsibility.
Willing to fund my MBA.

Company B
Large, reputed, international, award winning company (4,300+ employees nationwide and 130+ employees in regional office) involved in almost all industries.
Lots of money in company (much higher paying salary, better benefits, stock options), constant job flow, less responsibility.
Larger, higher profile jobs, only structural eng. responsibility.
No contact with upper management. Several levels of bosses separate me from top of the food chain.
Need several years of experience and need to prove myself before I would even be considered for any type of promotion.
Waiting for an answer from HR about education reimbursement for an MBA degree.

Complications: Company A had two rounds of lay-offs and I survived both rounds. Approximately 40% of employees were let go.
Company A did not fund my PE but they allowed me to study during working hours and I got to bill that to company overhead. They did not help me with any books or the review class that I took. They only paid a small amount of the overall fees (NCEES and state fees) for the exam.

-Is 2.5 years too short of a stay at a company? I don't want future employers to think I am one of those engineers that would immediately jump ship. How does this look on the resume?
-Will I be burning bridges with Company A because they kept me through two rounds of lay-offs and now I may decide to leave them? I feel like maybe I owe them my time because they kept me around during hard times.
-This is an extremely difficult decision as Company A is like a family to me. Is this a flawed mentality to have in this cut-throat engineering world?

 

[GregLocock]

"but they allowed me to study during working hours and I got to bill that to company overhead"

Ahem. That is no small thing.

"-Is 2.5 years too short of a stay at a company? I don't want future employers to think I am one of those engineers that would immediately jump ship. How does this look on the resume?"

Shortish but no problem, so long as it isn't a pattern.

"-Will I be burning bridges with Company A because they kept me through two rounds of lay-offs and now I may decide to leave them? "

Yes, I think so, unless you handle it very carefully

"I feel like maybe I owe them my time because they kept me around during hard times."

You don't, really.

"-This is an extremely difficult decision as Company A is like a family to me. Is this a flawed mentality to have in this cut-throat engineering world? "

I'm sure company A felt like family to some of the 40% they let go. I don't think it is a flawed mentality as such, just a bit naive.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[SNORGY]

I think the difference is, if you are worried about layoffs:
When Company A lays off 40% of their staff, they actually know who they are laying off, and they probably care. When Company B lays off 40% of their staff, they probably don't even know who they are, and they probably don't care either.

I would only leave Company A if the pay or the experience was inferior to the point where it compromised your development as an engineer. Based on your post, I don't sense that either is the case. In fact, it sounds like the kind of place where you could probably have an open and honest communication with them about your concerns re: large company with perceived security and more profile projects versus what you have now.

It sounds to me like Company A is expressing their desire to keep you in the best ways they know how, and based on what you describe, unless there's a real bust, I'd hang in there with them for a while.

 

[GregLocock]

Incidentally I agree with the snorgmeister, small firms where you are happy to work on interesting things are a good bet.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[oldestguy]

Look 10 to 20 years down the road. Do you have an ambition to be an associate, an owner, or an investor in A or B? Chances are that some of the current employees also might be your partners. As such, chances are you will enjoy the "work" more than now and will see compensation accordingly. In which organization is that more likely? The day to day work now will no longer be your job then. Also, what's the chance the company gets bought out by say an foreign group? Maybe they make some major change and it affects many. Just a thought from one that went through this progression in a small company.

 

[kylesito]

I've worked in big company's and little company's. It would take an exceptional offer to get me to leave my current small company for a larger one. I know there was a lot more prestige associated with the big company, but when I stepped back and look, I'd rather be intimately involved in a small project than be the guy who checks the spreadsheets on a bigger one.

For me, I'm happier as the big fish in the little pond. For you? That's something only you can answer.

Good lock!


PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[coloeng]

How much do you enjoy doing multiple types of projects? In a large company it is very easy to get pigeon holed to doing only specific types of projects.

 

[debodine]

To agree with coloeng, my favorite aviation related comment about that tendency is this scenario of a phone call to Boeing (with apologies to Boeing for the silliness):

No sir, you want the Boeing 777 left main truck center wheel set OUTBOARD tire engineer...I am the Boeing 777 left main truck center wheel set INBOARD tire engineer!

 

[weldstan]

Take a good and honest look at Company A's future. Backlog, satisfied customers, repeat business, Owner's commitment, etc. If it appears solid and you are content with your renumeration, stay with Company A.
If not, bail!

 

[cvg]

it seems that you expect to work on larger, more complicated and more glamorous projects if you work for a larger company. My experience (currently working for a large company with over a billion $US in annual revenue) is that you will be working on whatever projects come in the door. sometimes large, sometimes small, sometimes regional or international projects. You will be part of a small or large team, doing whatever the project manager feels you are qualified to do. It might be the exact same thing you are doing now for the smaller company. I agree, you could get pigeonholed, but it has not happened to me.

While being on a first name basis with the CEO makes you feel good, it is your experience and abilities that will most likely get you promoted. If you have the talent, you can get promoted in either a small or large company. But, with just 2 1/2 years under your belt, you have a ways to go before that happens.

Not really sure why an MBA is important, unless you hope to move into upper management at some point in the future. It might be useful some day if you decide to start your own business. I would not expect most companies to pay for that.

 

[SNORGY]

An MBA ... might be advantageous ...

 

[rotw]

I think you should stay in Company A. Eventually You will not realize how much Company A has been generous toward you until you leave them and jump to the unknown.

It is a matter of psychology sometimes. Often I say to myself that the more somebody is treated well and kindly, the more the person is tempted to challenge the Devil.

I even happen to discover that human nature makes it much more difficult to appreciate and value small things that we have for granted in life (like friendly people, loyal and helpful environment) than to fight against troubles and turbulences.
So to say a derivation or a variant of the saying : 'Get busy living or get busy dying'.

Just to make it clear this is my personal perspective only.

So as long as there are no risk of further layoffs again (Even through its hard to predict nowadays) and your learning curve is growing reasonably, I suggest you stay Company A.

 

[77JQX]

I've worked for big, I've worked for small. I'll take small over big any day.

 

[MusicEngineer]

Thank you all so much for your comments. Lots to learn from all of you. This is not going to be an easy decision.

 

[kylesito]

Nope, it won't be. And I hate to tell you but you will probably always wonder "what if". But that's what makes it fun.

I always think back to 10th grade English class and reading "the road not taken" by Robert Frost....so true.



PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[steellion]

If you feel relatively secure that you will not be laid off, I would stick with Company A at least until you earn your P.E. The P.E. license will open up more opportunities, and potentially set you up for a large increase in pay vs. what you make at Company A. If you make the jump as an EIT, you will be compensated as an EIT. As you will see on other threads, most companies do not provide a bump in salary commensurate to your increased value as a licensed P.E. to employees already on staff. You usually need to make the jump to get it.

If you want to pursue an MBA, I think that will mean a lot more to Company B. Most employees in a smaller company, even top-level executives, do not have an MBA. It's more on-the-job training concerning business principles. I'm surprised they would fund it. That's a good perk! Most of the time, a company will require you to sign a contract that you will stay X years after earning your degree; otherwise, you have to pay it back. Even if there is not such a formal agreement, I would think it unethical to take the company's money to fund your education then cut and run.

 

[MusicEngineer]

I spoke with HR for company B today. They have raised the salary on their offer and it is even more tempting now. They also offer a good educational reimbursement program.

I do feel like I'm learning new things at company A and still progressing as an engineer but I feel like it's only a matter of time until things stagnate. There isn't a great variety in terms of projects at A, only mineral processing plants. I also don't believe there is much room for me to progress my career at company A because engineers who typically typically move up are from the process department. It is just the way the company is structured.

Steellion, I did my PE in California in October and passed it, including the state specific exams. I recently received my license and the compensation at company B reflects this. Company A also promised me a raise for getting my PE but they have not given it yet because they can not afford it. Upper management says "big things are to come" yet the senior engineers are still bidding on jobs for 2014.

I'm worried that whichever route I decide to take, I will upset some people. I'm worried about burning bridges. As much as I want to stay with my comfort zone at Company A, I'm leaning towards making the switch. There is no reason to delay the inevitable.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Upper management says "big things are to come"

Oh, if I only had a dollar for the number of times I've heard THAT one...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[rotw]

If they have raised the compensation at Company B then this is to me not obviously a good sign.
Typical large companies attitude to become attractive because at the end people worth for them only Money.

Disappointing people should not be your criteria of decision but it is my personal perspective.
If you decide based on non objective parameters then you may incidentally disappoint people.

Looking back from my experience, I would ask myself the following questions and do the following:

1/ I would investigate what is the fundamental reason why Company B wants to take me onboard ? e.g. Sudden increase of workload in Company B. Certainly there is match between your profile and their job. But where is the cursor pointing. I would investigate which are the projects they are working on currently, see what is their schedule. Not easy without inside information but I would try to probe as much as I can.
2/- What is my exposure in Company A. Are the fundamentals solids: Company A is based on hard work, Management is rational, Right decisions are taken, Differentiation is based on merit, candor toward employee, employee evaluation is done based on quantifiable results and especially see if looking backward in time the Company survived through storms (the more ancient are their records of survival success, the better is) and see how they survived (mutation, re-organization, repositioning, etc.). In short try to make an objective diagnostic of Company A by quantifying its health. So the prospect might be shiny or dark for Company A in terms of future surely it impacts but Company A healthy mindset health and capability to tackle difficult cycles will have the prime to me as the best long term indicator for future survival.
3/- I would be conservative as much as possible in my decision taking process. Reason is that the economy and job market is becoming very rude and sharp and it is everywhere. So I would not jump into any kind of unknown, but give preference to incremental move instead of making breakthrough in my career.

Again very personal perspective.

 

[SNORGY]

You originally applied at Company B for a reason, so there were some things at Company A that you were (and still are) apprehensive about. Your last post reads to the effect that these apprehensions still remain and are now, in your mind, being reinforced now that Company B has sweetened the pot a bit. But be careful...when they state that they offer a good educational reimbursement program, that does not imply any commitment on their part that they will actually allow you to make full use of it; they have not divulged the caveats and strings yet.
MusicEngineer

You have had the conversation with B. If it was me, now would be the time to have the conversation with Company A. The big thing to me, though, is that you stated they sustained you on *their* overhead while you studied for *your* PE, and that they are now willing to fund *your* MBA. Please think long and hard before you choose to leave people like that.

The last time I worked for a large engineering company, I put in long hours, took crappy field assignments in Boonie-Ville McNowhere places in northern Canada in January, cancelled or postponed two annual vacations, received performance-based bonuses, and gave them four years of service. Then work projects Wound down and I was assigned to some overhead work. After all I had done in those four years, I found out my value to that company in terms of how long they would sustain me on overhead.

28 man hours.

So...think about it.