Toronto place crash 2

[LittleInch]

A Delta plane appears to have touched a wing tip during landing, ripped the wing off then promptly flipped over onto its back.

As they were on the airfield and this time didn't run into anything or catch fire, everyone is alive, though not surprisingly some injuries.

All passengers survive crash landing as plane flips at Toronto airport

Eighteen of the 80 people on board were injured after the Delta plane overturned on landing.

www.bbc.co.uk

This video https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14407855/delta-plane-crash-toronto-fireball-footage.html makes it look like a very hard landing - no visible flare

 

[DirteJoe]

Per the CNN aviation expert yesterday, wings are attached with explosive bolts.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST
"And that's by design. They have breakaway explosive bolts that hold those wings on so that if the aircraft does go sideways, and it does hit the wing, if that wing was too stiff, it would tear the fuselage apart and dislodge the seats and damage the fuselage. But it's designed to allow that when it's a huge impact on the wing to strip those wings off. And then that aircraft can continue to move and come to rest safely."

CNN.com - Transcripts

*shakes head*
The moon is also made of cheese, I swear.

 

[Brian Malone]

Not to nitpick, Dirtejoe, but the av-expert did state 'break away bolts', not explosive bolts. The mechanism of operation is significantly different for each type. Sorry, DirteJoe, I missed the explosive detail in his statement.

Regardless, the wings shearing off definitely spared the fuselage from destructive forces. Excellent design and implementation.

 

[SWComposites]

Per the CNN aviation expert yesterday, wings are attached with explosive bolts.

that "expert" is obviously a complete fool who has no clue at all about aircraft.

appears only the right wing came off .

 

[XR250]

Looks like the landing gear collapsed on impact?

 

[JohnRBaker]

In the video, it looks like the right landing gear collapses, which leads to the wing hitting the ground.

 

[Eufalconimorph]

Another angle here

 

[LittleInch]

The second one which ir probably fore shortened does make it look like a very hard landing, but the one from the cockpit of the other plane? makes it seem much softer and that the landing gear just collapsed. But survivors seem to say it just flew into the ground and hit with a huge crash.

 

[Sym P. le]

It is rather obvious, and there are many videos, that a crosswind gust picked up the left wing just at the moment of touchdown causing the right wing
to strike the ground and break off. If the landing looks hard and fast, it was to stay ahead of the gusts. Unfortunately fate interceded in this instance.

I find it disconcerting that the Fire Chief would claim there were no crosswinds at the time, and various news outlets would run with that. Toronto Pearson doesn't have a Runway 27 and all indications are strong gusty winds blew directly from the west for a good period of time during this incident. You can even see the wind driven snow blow diagonally across the tarmac in the evacuation videos.

From CBC

What was the weather like? ​

Todd Aitken, the GTAA's fire chief, told reporters on Monday night that the runway conditions were dry and there were no crosswinds.

What the weather was really like!


weather.gc.ca


BBC

 

[LittleInch]

that "expert" is obviously a complete fool who has no clue at all about aircraft.

appears only the right wing came off .

In the heat of the moment under live TV he clearly meant break away, or designed to fial under extreme loading and gor the explosive bit wrong....

Might have meant expansive and it just came out all wrong....

 

[LittleInch]

It is rather obvious, and there are many videos, that a crosswind gust picked up the left wing just at the moment of touchdown causing the right wing/engine to strike the ground and break off. If the landing looks hard and fast, it was to stay ahead of the gusts. Unfortunately fate interceded in this instance.

I find it disconcerting that the Fire Chief would claim there were no crosswinds at the time, and various news outlets would run with that. Toronto Pearson doesn't have a Runway 27 and all indications are strong gusty winds blew directly from the west for a good period of time during this incident. You can even see the wind driven snow blow diagonally across the tarmac in the evacuation videos.

From CBC


What the weather was really like!

View attachment 5085
weather.gc.ca

View attachment 5087
BBC

Sym pe Le,

The crosswind was about 40 degrees to the runway (270 versus runway 22(0)) and may be a bit hard / on the limits, but the plane I think did a U turn / cartwheel so wind was actually coming in form the right.

Those planes have engines on the tail so the wing might be a bit lower to the ground than other types, but in such conditions I think they just got the flare wrong and flew it into the ground so hard the landing gear collapsed.

If those were mph or knots then it does look a bit too windy for that type of jet alright.

 

[EdStainless]

It is a tough airport.
In the city and it requires steep approaches in the best of times.
Amazing that the fuselage stayed together and everyone survived.
Didn't they say only 2 serious injuries?

 

[DirteJoe]

In the heat of the moment under live TV he clearly meant break away, or designed to fial under extreme loading and gor the explosive bit wrong....

Might have meant expansive and it just came out all wrong....

As far as I am aware, wings are not fastened with break away bolts of any sort. Plastic break away bolts do exist on non flight essential items like fairings, but not ever on the fastening of the wing to the plane.

I don't do much civilian stuff anymore, so things may have changed on newer designs, but anything before 2020, I'd be damn shocked to see break away bolts fastening wings on.

We'd have wings falling off planes left and right from storms and rough landings.


EdStainless, 3 injuries reported critical. 2 adults and a child.

 

[Garbage1]

From Video, plane appears stable coming in for landing, and initial touch down looks stable. Then it appears right landing gear collapsed thus causing plane to bank right, and the additional drag on right side created cart wheel. It appears right side touched down first, but could not see any bouncing side to side in the video.



Not first landing gear collapse on CRJ. Video below shows collapse affecting both right and left thus plane did a tail drag and NOT a spiral.

 

[Sym P. le]

The orientation of the carcass is more difficult to ascertain than I thought. It might be sitting on the cross runway to 27, in which case I have exactly disproven my gripe. I can't find anything that resembles the runway markings from the photo on the aerial imagery Googe Maps. Here is some helicopter footage covering the scene.

 

[TugboatEng]

I've said it before but maybe it needs to be repeated. Take a subject that you are intimately familiar with and find a news article on it from the mainstream media. You'll never trust the mainstream media to be factual again.

 

[LittleInch]

As far as I am aware, wings are not fastened with break away bolts of any sort. Plastic break away bolts do exist on non flight essential items like fairings, but not ever on the fastening of the wing to the plane.

I don't do much civilian stuff anymore, so things may have changed on newer designs, but anything before 2020, I'd be damn shocked to see break away bolts fastening wings on.

We'd have wings falling off planes left and right from storms and rough landings.


EdStainless, 3 injuries reported critical. 2 adults and a child.

You're probably correct and the guy was just talking out of his ar$e. I know engine mounts are designed to fail at extreme loadings so that it doesn't tear the wing apart, though not many planes survive an engine off situation it's better than no wing at all.

The wings are of course bolted onto the main structure and you can see why something like 3 times max loadings should result in wing connection failing before total fuselage collapse. That's why landing gear has max loads and is intended to fail before again ripping the fuselage apart to say nothing of the weight required for the connections.

 

[TugboatEng]

I have seen a video of the landing. The airplane never flared.

 

[Sym P. le]

I agree. It's possible that with the hard and fast landing there was just enough roll with a wind gust to crush down the right gear first and collapse it. I'm starting to believe that the wind was more aligned with 27 than I first thought. The aircraft did not seem to have much crab to it either.

 

[LittleInch]

Its come to a stop at the junction of 22 and 15L see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2dnnvvjkeo and turned back to face where it came from.

Also your wind speeds are possibly in km/hr if this is a canadian site?

This has one of the few pictures I can find looking at the left hand wing clearly showing that the RH wheels are missing and also a pretty brutal ripping off of the main wing. No explosive bolts there.... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20g02djlv7o

Many moons ago I was in a Saudia 747 internal flight where I swear the pilot just flew it into the runway with no flare. Never felt such a bang before on an aircraft, over head bins broke open, people screaming and from my position at the back of the bus I could see the whole air frame flex. That was one my near misses for sure. Not sure what aircraft are supposed to be suitable for but will be interesting to see the G forces when they dig out all the data.