Toyota Recall 7

[keller36]

Hello. I am new to the forum and had a rather extensive question. I am wondering what system is causing the sudden acceleration problems in Toyota vehicles as well as the specific part in that system, if any specific part is respoinsible. I was also wondering, depending on the system involved in the problem, whether the problem is electrical, mechanical, or a problem in the vehicle's software. Thank you for any responses.

 

[berkshire]

Interesting comment buried in that article.
Any truth in it?

"In a report earlier this month, The Associated Press found that for years, Toyota has blocked access to data stored in the "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden unintended acceleration. "

B.E.

 

[JSteve2]

It's true, but it's been true for everyone. Those black boxes are a litigation Pandora's box, and it's not just about the car companies. Drivers, vehicle owners, insurance companies, fleet owners, and just about everyone else have been mulling over whether opening those boxes are good or bad for them. Further, they don't store a lot of parameters, they don't store them at a high sampling rate (except possibly in a rolling buffer of a number of seconds that gets captured immediately after a noteworthy event), and they could actually make understanding a problem more difficult rather than less, if the limitations of the information provided were not well understood.

The fact that Toyota has not resolved this issue is no indictment, because they would be the first. Just call your (fill in the name) dealer and see if you can get the data downloaded from your car and you will see what I mean.

 

[TrackRat]

What they mean is Toyota like most auto companies does not allow others to access their black boxes. If there was evidence or potential evidence of Satan, Cosmic Rays, or Ray Charles taking over control of these Toyotas and racing them down the road, I'm sure the lawyers will gain access to the black boxes.

Toyota said weeks ago that they would open the black boxes for all to see and as far as I can tell they have done so. That's how they determined this woman was not pressing on the brakes but instead was actually pressing on the accelerator. Same deal with the 94 mph runaway Prius in CA. The black box showed no effort to stop the vehicle, just light pressure on the brake pedal 250 times...

NHTSA engineers are the ones making these public reports so it's not Toyota, it's an independent group of experienced crash research investigators and engineers.

 

[dgallup]

I will never own a car with one of those black boxes. Perhaps that means I will never own another new car but so be it. I have no problem with DBW, ABS, traction control, stability control, etc. but I will not let my car testify against me in court. They can't make a wife testify against her husband, why should my car be allowed to testify against me? They have already used those black boxes in a number of high profile court cases, the precedent was set long ago.

 

[NormPeterson]

Matt,

With all due respect to those looking forward to a long and fruitful career in vehicle controls, my own feelings run closer to Rod's. I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with DBW either, though the calibrations developed to suit the driving public at large may not be as good as they could be for high performance driving.

I'm a little familiar with recalibrations done to the current Mustang PCM, generally to suit the drag racers and street-driving dragrace wanna-be's. Quicker rates of throttle opening and elimination of a little dead-band just off zero pedal seems to be the direction that most take. As far as I'm concerned, that's off in the wrong direction if throttle modulation while cornering is what you're after.

The calibrations for other systems may likewise not favor performance driving. If they're set too conservative to suit less capable drivers, they can get in the way of drivers who possess better skills.

It may be that "video game" generations will have an easier time adapting than those of us somewhat "senior" folks. In some cases, it becomes a matter of having to unlearn skills that have served well for 40 years or more and replacing them with new approaches that vary from slightly contradictory to completely so. Even though I know intellectually what might be going on, I can't predict precisely how I'll cope with whatever somebody else has determined that my vehicle should be doing instead. I have come to expect certain "linearities" (curvilinearities?) while driving, and don't like being caught by surprise.


By way of postscript, my wife just drove the latest addition to the vehicle "stable" home last night. A Subaru 2.5GT Limited. Lots of power, lots of features, DBW, ESC, ABS, and brake assist that I know of. It's too soon to tell much, other than it being possible to shut the ESC off. The jury is still out on brake assist - if it isn't better than I am, its value is questionable, and if it is then I might get hit from behind.

One other thing - it has a clutch with which to deal with any unintended acceleration. Her choice, and strongly so having driven MT cars virtually exclusively for 40 years.


Norm

 

[LionelHutz]

The black box showed no effort to stop the vehicle, just light pressure on the brake pedal 250 times...

Source?

 

[TrackRat]

The Source was NHTSA and Toyota who with others inspected the data from the black box.

 

[LionelHutz]

And yet the stories I've read said the Toyota "black box" will only record about 5 seconds before and 1 second after an accident. There was never an accident to trigger saving a recording and if it still holds 5 seconds of rolling data then the stored events while at 90mph on the road were long gone by the time the car was stopped. I've yet to read a creditable source that actually explains what the Toyota recorder is capable of and how it was able to record those 250 brake presses.

 

[evelrod]

"Black box"? Child's play! In addition to 'master shut off' I can see a 'real time' monitoring of individual cars via the "On Star" or similar program being made mandatory. Man, if that's no Orwellian I don't know what is. Yeah, I'm way to old to accept all this as "normal", but I suspect the newest generation of 'video gamers' will treat it as 'ho-hum'.

Rod

 

[thruthefence]

evelrod,
A "true crime" story from the trailer parks of Louisiana:

Local Sheriff gets "Onstar" heads-up call, reporting an accident in the Piney woods of North Louisiana. Unable to contact registered driver, the worst is feared.....armed with GPS coordinates provided by big brother, er, Onstar, the cops arrive at the Escalade, in a ditch, stuck up to the axles of the formerly shiny "22's" in red clay.

Further detective work reveals driver "Asleep at the wheel", open containers, two comatose co-perps, a sixteen year old girl, and 1/2 oz or so of reefer.

"Oh brave new world that has such people in it"

The adults are now safely ensconced on the 'Pea farm' not able to make bail, the girl returned to her parents.

No mention if the Escalade had unintended acceleration, and ended up in the ditch. I would bring up that possibility to my court appointed attorney, I think.

 

[GregLocock]

Wasn't he 250 brake presses from a Prius? The hybrid unit's controller has a much longer memory than the usual black box.

Incidentally throttle pedal progression is a designed parameter even in cars with mechanical linkages, for instance compare a Merc and a Ferrari.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[NormPeterson]

I'm sure, Greg. Could make relatively low powered vehicles be perceived as being more powerful than they really are (thus favorably impressing prospective buyers on the test drive and hence benefitting sales).

Or in the other direction (with a very specific individual example here), the 'before' and 'after' arrangement going from a carburetor-style cable throttle actuation vs a sector whose arc need not be circular nor whose instantaneous center need never be concentric with the throttle plate shaft. Made a significant improvement in the driveability of an aftermarket multiport EFI equipped (58mm x 2 throttle body) SBC-powered autocross car. Even in normal street use as well.


Norm

 

[TrackRat]

For years Audi and VW - especially on the Turbo cars used a very progressive mechanical throttle to give the impression the engine had much more off-idle power than it really did. It definitely improving normal driving and compensated for the lack of off-idle boost.

 

[dgallup]

The ill-fated Oldsmobile diesel got to about 90% fueling in the first 25% of "throttle" pedal travel. Still didn't feel responsive.

 

[TrackRat]

Beating a dead horse don't make it faster or stronger. <LOL>

 

[thruthefence]

Have there been any issues with pick up trucks?

I don't recall any.

Wouldn't the technology be similar?

 

[BrianPetersen]

Some of Toyota's pickups have been included in the recalls. The engine control technology is the same and the strategy used for the accelerator pedal sensors is the same and the same suppliers of those parts are used.