Tragic Indifference 19

[TChronos]

I just read this book, on the Ford/Firestone rollover issue:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060090588/104-0610785-9739901?v=glance

Rather than discuss specifics (especially since some of the engineers involved may be on this board), here's a hypothetical. Management asks engineering to do the impossible (what else is new). But in this case, it's really impossible. Releasing the product would result in inordinate risk for consumers involved. The engineers are industry exempt.

If the engineer passes on the design, knowing that it's defective, what non-judicial sanctions should apply? In such a case, should some sort of decertification or peer review apply to the ENGINEERS involved? How much power does a big three engineer have to stop a really dangerous design?

 

[CanEngJohn]

In reply to haggis

"Why should they pay you any more if you're not using it. They occasionaly pay independant consultants for that because they save money and pass on the burden of liability."

Does this not demonstrate what the economic effect of removing the Industry Exemption would have?

 

[IRstuff]

I think that it's dangerous to extrapolate existing conditions into a situation where ALL engineers are required to be licensed.

Consider what has happened in the medical industry. Licensed practioners with semi-independent industry oversight. For while, doctor's did very well, but currently, a doctor spends MAYBE 10 minutes with each patient. And there's pressure to decrease that further to control costs.

The bottomline is that potential increase in compensation MUST be made up somewhere, e.g., productivity must substantially increase or there can be no increase in salary. This means less time to review and analyze a design, much like what happened during the era of "better, cheaper, faster" at NASA. Product excellence and reliability decreased.

Look at the numerically; either you get paid more, which means that companies cannot afford to hire as many engineers or you'll get paid the same, but with higer liabilities. Our military customers already gag at paying $180 per engineering hour and that's without an added PE differential.

TTFN

 

[haggis]

Reply to CanEngJohn re: Clarifying his stance.

I see the point you are trying to make and agree with the fact that the public may say,We have lost faith in relying on individual conscience and demand third party surveillance.

Maybe I have a little touch of tunnel vision on this when it concerns our work with having been accociated with individuals who have been exemplary in the course of their duties as no doubt are you.

As for the economic status of engineers, as I said in a previous post, that if we were all to be licensed and renumerated accordingly to use a stamp, the employers would balk at the salaries we richly deserved. I think the resulting glut of independant licensed professionals would determine a fee structure not to our liking.

Even if we were all licensed, it's hard to get public confidence back once it has been shattered.

How do we solve the problem of ridding the industry of any bad seeds we may encounter?. One of my sons works free-lance in the movie and T.V. production business. If one is found to be unreliable or unethical, the industry grape vine starts buzzing and they never work in the same town again.

Might sound like Frontier Justice but a reprimand from a Professional Association is seldom, if at all, quite as effective.

 

[brad]

(Note that I make this comment as a PE myself...)

The argument that forcing mandatory licensing on all industry-exempt will automatically increase ethical behavior is utter rubbish.

If I, PE or not, let something out the door which results in a death (due to my ethical breaches), I will lose my job. Additional sanctions from a licensing board might be noteworthy, but it is ludicrous to suggest that there is not currently a means to sanction industry-exempt.

If everybody were a PE, the dirtbags with questionable ethics would still commit ethical breaches. Anybody who doesn't believe this statement should pay more attention to Wall Street. CPA's are the accounting equivalent of PE's, yet one can see how effective the possibility of professional sanctions has been on some CPA's.

License or not, dirtbags will still be dirtbags. This has been proven in other professions, and we kid ourselves if we believe that engineers collectively could somehow (to a person) be above such poor behavior.

Brad

 

[buzzp]

Brad,
Thanks for that last post. Its nice to see a PE object to the main argument of mandating licensing. I will add to your star list.