Turck Sensors ? 1

[PUMPDESIGNER]

As a trial we installed about 30 Turck Sensors.
They were Thermal Dispersion type flow switches.
They were installed in a wide variety of projects so that we could get a feel for them.

Most failed within about 3 months. A few have held in there for about a year, and now those have failed too.

We also installed two other brand thermal dispersion flow switches: 50 Weber sensors and 20 IFM Effector. None of those IFM or Weber sensors failed. All failed Turck sensors were replaced with IFM or Weber and all those failed Turcks were replaced with Weber and none have failed since.

Has anyone had other experiences with Turck Sensors in general even if not the same type of sensor? Good or Bad?

We suspect very wimpy electrical design that cannot live the the real world of transients.

PUMPDESIGNER


PUMPDESIGNER

 

[CHDean]

I think you've answered your own question. If all things are equal you've done a broad test of the product. The failure rate of the 50 Turck units vs. the 70 other units should ebmarrass anyone who manufactured the product.
Have you taken anyone from Turck to task for this? They really need to know.

 

[PUMPDESIGNER]

CHDean Thank you for responding.

No, we have not approached Turk. Althought a little pusing got some money back, they seem uninterested.
The money returned for most of the units was minor really compared to the cost of labor,pain, and embarrassment.

We asked around about Turk and a former employee of theirs said that the electronics on their equipment has always been a problem. He said Turck had a standard reply every time - bad power, not their problem.
This accusation of a former employee is of course anectdotal and suspect, but tempting to believe because it backs up what our test revealed.

Hope others respond. Gee, with all the full page adds that Turck runs in the mags I would think others have used their stuff.

PUMPDESIGNER

 

[dbrune]

I have had experience with Turk sensors at my previous job and they were not great. We tried to get them to replace the units but we got the run around. We ended up using Banner sensors (

http://www.baneng.com)

and I believe they are still in service(four years and counting) and that is what the company has switched over to. The policy of replacing the Turks was remove the Turk, throw in trash can, install Banner and move on. I am sure they work well in some instances but not in that particular plant or environment.

Darren

 

[PUMPDESIGNER]

dbrune - Thank you very much. This type of input helps us very much.

PUMPDESIGNER

 

[jbartos]

Suggestion/question: If the Turck manufacturer mentioned a potential power quality problem; has there anything been done to improve the power quality?

 

[jbartos]

Suggestion: Visit

http://www.turck.com/

for the present sensor information

 

[PUMPDESIGNER]

jbartos - Good question. We felt that since the other sensors are 100% reliable, then the Turcks are too weak to be in the real world. We were further confirmed in this because we would remove the Turck, let it sit, then test it and it would work again. That is an old problem commonly seen in electronics years ago, chips stuck or locked up until you powered down and started again.

We feel it not worthwhile to study potential power problems in these cases because the other sensors seem fine. Yea, we are guilty of some power problems probably, because we control big pumps, and even our PLC throws small transients around turning relays on and off.

We always take preemptive steps assuming there are always some problems on the line, we provide isolation transformers, MOVs, power supplies, etc. on every system. If any power problem beyond what those components can correct then sensor is too delicate. We feel that every electrical component used in industry must have some of its own help, all transients cannot be eliminated practically. Even our PLC throws small transients turning relays on and off.

dbrune - I went to the link offered by jbartos. Banner seems to be same company as Turk.


PUMPDESIGNER

 

[steamboat444]

Spent 15 years with a division of Honeywell that competed with Turck in other types of sensors such as photoelectrics and inductive proximity sensors. I honestly never remember any "buzz" about poor design or quality, at Turck, in the areas that we were concerned with.

 

[PUMPDESIGNER]

steamboat444 - Thank you. I was thinking that perhaps Turck has a limited problem with this sensor. Big companies can have schizo, great one place, terrible another. What is bad though is their response to this. They act like it was nothing, no big deal, don't buy them if you do not like them, cannot please everyone.

Companies are doomed to mediocrity when their employees take that attitude. I know of companies that would lose their mind and jump over hill and dale if they had this problem.

PUMPDESIGNER

 

[wired1]

PUMPDESIGNER
Years ago, I used a lot of Turck for Industrial Control applications. They had a good reputation and were a favorite choice. Later, they became partnered with Banner, and perhaps a different management philosophy has prevailed. I definitely agree with CHDean that they need to hear about your troubles and be forced to explain the failures.

 

[jbartos]

Suggestion and comment: Sometimes, one manufacturer incorporates into the product everything foreseeable to have its product working at all projected conditions. Other manufacturer offers a basic product, perhaps for less, and lets customers to order options or features extra, and pay for those. Perhaps, there may have been something offered by Turck to protect their sensors, if asked for it and paid for it. It would not be fair to denounce such manufacturers who offer options or features and elevate other manufacturers who pack everything into their product. A typical example may be a car and car manufacturers who offer plenty of car options and features. However, I see a good point in one product per purchase and application since this reduces inventory and eases procurement.

 

[steamboat444]

Pumpdesigner;

You are absolutely right. Worked with a group of engineering geniuses who weren't terribly well founded in the operating conditions of the "real" world. They designed a programmable controller that was sold to a manufacturer of checkout stands. They were okay except that the relatively low level of electrical noise from the conveyor motor starter would lock them up. No problem, have them wrap them in aluminum foil.

They did the same thing with a line of photoelectric sensors. They were very sensitive to noise, but no problem, the customer can shield them. Why should we build in noise immunity when the customer can shield for it? EXCEDRIN HEADACHE #1.

 

[afterhrs]

Pumpdesigner,
As far as turck proximity switches go, I find them to be about average. They fail from time to time ,but nothing out of the ordinary. Let me also say that I have these sensors in a place with alot of EMI. Every 2 seconds a field is created strong enough to disrupt a crt screen from 8 feet away.
I believe all aspects of industry is in seriuos need of an "Industrial Consumer Reports." Until that occurs, I will continue using what I know that is rugged and will go the distance in the real world. Becuase in the end , there are some things you can not buy, and a good name and reputation are not for sale. They have to be earned.

"Schizo" is a great term to describe the in quality between Allen-Bradley IEC contactors verses Allen-Bradley NEMA contactors. When it comes to IEC, I find Siemans to be a much better contactor. Wich is quite dissapointing, when
it comes to NEMA contactors, I havent found anything to beat Allen-Bradley.

Regards,
Afterhrs

 

[ScottyUK]

Afterhrs,

I will second your recommendation of Siemens IEC contactors. We started using them after we started to find some problems with Telemecanique's products, and are impressed by the quality of the Siemens product.

Scotty.

 

[jbartos]

Suggestion: The Siemens relays were installed in machinery controls about thirty years ago when I worked with them. I think that Siemens has a good experience with relays since it was originally in the telephone hardware business.

 

[PUMPDESIGNER]

Thank you for the comments about Allen-Bradley IEC contactors. We are in negotiations with AB and now I will take the IEC contactors off the table. I am not making hasty here, I know that years ago AB was relabeling Klockner Moeller IEC contactors, perhaps still are. I just hate that when a big manufacturer buys out and relabels, lock them bean counters up in a dark hole and let the engineers design something. I am humane however, we really should feed the beancounters now and then.

Whoa, big time comment on Consumer Reports for industrial. I dream about that.

PUMPDESIGNER

 

[jbartos]

Small encore: The Siemens contactors are to be added to Siemens relays in my previous posting.

 

[jbartos]

Suggestion: Visit

http://www.ab.com/manuals/ms/100-2.9.pdf

for contactor comparisons

 

[FPLTboss]

I find this very interesting. I’ve used Turck, Banner and Sick for years. All have their problems as does any company or product. What I find so interesting from all the responses are:
1. Banner and Turck are not the same company. They use many of the same sales people. In my area they are not one in the same.
2. Sick does not manufacture capacitive sensors but have them via a private label.
3. Turck and Banner products are typically not competitive for the same application.
4. Turck does not make or carry photos
5. Banner does not make Prox’s

These are the corrections. Now for my opinion. To be fair with any company and our industry it is incumbent on us to contact the manufacturer. I do not happen to use the Turck flow sensor that you speak of but you could help out a brother engineer by working with the manufacturer to solve their issue. Why didn’t you call their 800 number? If the person on the phone cannot help, they get the product specialist involved. The one thing I truly like about Turck is they have always responded with accessibility. (They come to the problem to resolve it.)

Next time, get the manufacturer involved even if you still plan to replace them. It makes our industry better.