Typical details for wood beam to steel post, with sheathing over?

[AaronMcD]

Hi, I am trying to figure out a detail for the condition mentioned in the title. Rim beam at wall with sheathing. Seems to me it would be a very common situation (anywhere you have steel posts in wood construction).

I could weld beam buckets to the column, but then the buckets/bolt heads intrude into sheathing space. I could let beam bucket into each side and screw it so it is behind the sheathing, but this seems like a small pain. I could do a fin plate, but then I don't get any bearing. I could do an upside-down T shape. I'd still need to slot the beam and countersink the bolts, but I think this might be the best option. Of course I still have the issue of ceiling sheathing over the bottom of the seat.

Is there a widely used detail for this, or is this just one of those things engineers don't think about and the contractor has to start chopping stuff up?

 

[jayrod12]

Post a sketch. Steel saddles are typical. Knife plates are the more expensive alternative. Generally with knife plates you rely on the bolt in bearing.

 

[AaronMcD]

As you say saddles are typical - that's what I was thinking. But then how do contractors get around the sheathing issue? Also causes a lump in ceiling sheathing at interior locations. Here is a screenshot of the problem. Middle is a standard bucket with one edge and bolt heads getting in the way of wall sheathing. Left is a large chunk cut out of the side, doesn't seem ideal. Right is a knife plate with optional bearing plate. This seems like it actually works in the geometry of a wall, but might be a bit more difficult than the bucket. OTOH, cutting a slot in a beam and lining up a few holes shouldn't be very hard.

Edit:
I almost just wanna move that rim joist to the inside of the 2x6 wall, put the framing clips on the outside and block at panel edges.

 

[dik]

You may want to avoid the 2 lines of bolts... if the wood shrinks or swells, it may cause cracking.

Dik

 

[XR250]

Use a 1/2 bucket (no vertical leg on the exterior)

 

[JZgor]

Simpson makes a face mounted hanger that can be welded to steel beams and has concealed flanges. Its the HUCQ model.

 

[XR250]

Simpson makes a face mounted hanger that can be welded to steel beams and has concealed flanges. Its the HUCQ model.

Aahh, even better.

 

[bhiggins]

I have a similar situation of a project of mine. I have a fancy residential garage with all-around clerestory windows. We are using a steel frame to support the roof and infilling between the columns with wood. In this case the top plate is behaving like a girt for out of plane wind load. What do you say is the the best method for connecting the top plate to steel? The top plate will probably be a 4x6 and we need to transfer horizontal shear to the steel. The client needs a clean finish without any bolt-heads protruding out.

 

[OldBldgGuy]

XR250 was right the first time, not the 2nd. Seat & 1 side located where you want it is cheaper, more effective, and easier for the framer than any suggested alternative above including and usually especially anything from Simpson. I spec Simpson if I have a client who doesn't care about cost & I'm in a lazy CYA mood.

 

[AaronMcD]

I still don't know how to quote here.

I like the half-bucket approach. Easy to install the beam, too.

The client doesn't have infinite money but it is a pretty damn high-end project in SF, no one cares about a few extra bucks for a simpson hanger. We are using flush-mounted LVLs throughout with simpson hangers, and special moment frames as well. A simpson bucket isn't a worry. But are these thin enough to get sheathing over?

@bhiggins, when you say top plate do you mean the sill below the window? Will angle clips such as A35 T&B attached to the nailers not be sufficient? Or am I not imagining this correctly?

@dik, I think the bolts should be fine. They are located near the bottom eliminating upper-half shrinkage issues, and these are PSLs anyway which don't shrink like dimensional lumber (or so I've read). I'm using all engineered lumber for the floors and rim joists to reduce shrinkage in the existing shell. However, I am using dimensional lumber for the walls to match existing. My coworkers don't think the longitudinal shrinkage of new lumber will be enough to cause any issues. What do you think?

 

[dhengr]

AaronMcD:
Design your own hangers. These aren’t hangers for commercial sale by the thousands, so they shouldn’t need the same testing and vetting that Simpson and USP go through to get ICC approval, and tabulations for their catalogs. At the same time, you have their product as a pretty darn good starting point and something to work toward. Their hangers will most likely be 14 or 16ga., plus nail heads, gives you about 1/8" of total thickness beyond the face of the beam. You could make the hanger 1/8" narrower in width (their “W” dim.) and then cut 1/8" of beam width off the ext. face of the beam for about 2" at the top, to 3" of beam length at the bottom. Or, for the few places and sheets of sheathing where this will be an issue, use their hangers, and just put the sheet of sheathing up there and whack it a few times with a hammer, at the hanger side nails. Then with a hanger side shape template you can mark the sheathing off the nail indentations. Take a router and remove the inside face of the sheathing, 1/8" deep in the hanger area. Basically you can’t be nailing there or to the stl. post anyway. This is a fair amount of messing around, and expensive however you do it, but out there on high end houses, they just shrug their shoulders and move on. They are dapping stl. strapping, and the like, into the sheathing all over the place to take concentrated loads into the sheathing, etc.

 

[Tmoose]

It looks to me like the 14 ga ( only 0.075" thick) galvanized (galvanizing likely needs to be removed) Simpson HUCQ hanger is not intended for welding.
"For use on solid sawn wood members."

https://www.strongtie.com/facemounthangersssl_solidsawnlumberconnector/hucq_hanger/p/hucq

https://www.strongtie.com/products/...tion-connectors/technical-notes/general-notes

 

[JZgor]

@Tmoose I believe the "For use on solid sawn wood members" refers to the type of member being supported by the hanger:

https://www.strongtie.com/facemount...-hu-huc-hucq_productgroup_wcc/p/u.hu.huc.hucq

Here is the info for welded applications:

https://www.strongtie.com/products/...frame-moment-frames/connections/hu-huc-welded

@AaronMcD In regards to the thickness of the hanger of causing issues with sheathing I would just offset the hanger so the outside of the hanger is flush with the face of the HSS column. Also if you use the Simpson hangers be sure to check the Simpson technical bulletin: T-C-HUHUC-W to insure that the hanger is sufficient to carry the loads you are dealing with.