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UK net zero electricity by 2030- easy to say before an election.

GregLocock

Automotive
Apr 10, 2001
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Orbiting a small yellow star

Australia is in an entirely comparable position, except our idiots don't even see a problem yet. So we'll continue with the Field of Dreams approach, throwing taxpayer money at billionaire's get richer quick schemes.






Though not quite up there with history’s great political texts, Ed Miliband’s letter this week to the director of the ESO, which runs Britain’s national grid, is a rather important document. It reveals – or confirms – that Labour has committed itself to decarbonising Britain’s electricity system by 2030 without really having any idea of how that can be done. Miliband described this letter as a ‘formal commission… to provide practical advice on achieving clean power’.

That is all very well, except shouldn’t Miliband have sought this advice months ago, before pledging to achieve net zero on domestic energy by 2030? This week was supposed to be the big reveal: we would learn how this target – considered unreachable by many – is going to be hit. But Miliband, it seems, doesn’t have the first idea as to how the country can decarbonise the grid, still less by 2030. His agenda and the decarbonisation deadline are starting to look like a ludicrous bluff.

The ‘embodiment’ of Labour’s agenda was supposed to be a new company: Great British Energy. ‘A new home-grown energy company,’ Keir Starmer promised, ‘like Orsted in Denmark and Vattenfall in Sweden.’ There was much talk about where it would be based, and this week we found out: in Aberdeen.

National Grid directors have warned that if Britain sticks to this policy we face blackouts by 2028

The conceit is that the project will mop up all the jobs that will be lost in the oil industry. Except that GB Energy will not be a company generating energy at all; it is instead a name given to an investment scheme.

A few weeks ago, Miliband trumpeted that GB Energy would partner with Crown Estates to create up to 30 gigawatts of new offshore wind developments by 2030. He was so excited that it seemed unfair to point out that the Crown Estate had already set that target in November under the Tories. The 20 million homes which that energy is supposed to power would be lucky to get electricity by 2040, given the wait for new projects to be connected to the grid.

Miliband’s plans are vague to the point of nonexistent, yet he was very specific with his pledges. ‘Great British Energy is part of our mission to make Britain a clean energy superpower by 2030,’ we were told before the election, ‘helping families save £300 per year off their energy bills.’ Instead, we now find out that bills are going up – with the rise in the Ofgem price cap next month adding £149 to the average bill.

‘A direct result of the failed energy policy we inherited,’ Miliband fumed when Ofgem announced the news, ‘which has left our country at the mercy of international gas markets controlled by dictators.’

Even this claim does not stand up to scrutiny. For one thing, the global gas market is not in the hands of dictators: by far the biggest producer is the US. And on the home front, when David Cameron came to power, just 3 per cent of electricity was produced by wind and 0.01 per cent solar. Now, it’s 28 per cent from wind and 4 per cent solar. Few other countries have embraced wind energy so enthusiastically – and all this in spite of Cameron’s de facto ban on onshore wind turbines. Only China generates more electricity from offshore wind.

Boris Johnson’s government was ambitious to a fault, committing to a target of decarbonising the UK electricity system by 2035 – with 95 per cent of electricity to come from green sources by 2030. On its ambition for green power, the previous government was, therefore, very nearly aligned with Miliband. It is hard to escape the conclusion that Miliband brought forward the 2035 target by five years just to one-up the Tories. He thought it sounded good, positive and progressive – and didn’t stop to ask whether the Johnson 2035 deadline may itself have been bluster. Johnson and Miliband simply set their targets for presentational reasons and decided to worry about the details later.

Wind and solar now produce about 34 per cent of British power; to hit the 2030 target, that figure would have to double, according to a recent study by Cornwall Insight.

Assuming all of Miliband’s plans work out, that analysis said, the most he could hope for is 44 per cent. To call his plan ‘ambitious’ – as so many still do – is to deny reality. It’s a demonstrable fantasy. He may carry out his pledge to double onshore wind capacity, triple solar power and quadruple offshore wind, but even this would not be enough when you factor in the biggest single problem: the national grid.


Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
What is going on with our leaders that they’ve embraced Net Zero? It feels like they’ve joined a cult. Instead of giving away their homes and cars to pay their way into some Jim Jones utopia, they’re instead dismantling and giving away the infrastructure built over generations—all for the promise of a green society just a few years away.

How have skilled political leaders fallen into such irrationality? Are they simply following public opinion? It seems deeper than that. Is it idealism? Is it a totalitarianism taking root in defiance of reality? I’m at a loss. What is going on?
 
Does anybody remember the Al Gore (sponsor of An Inconvenient Truth) controversy? His home energy was +20x the national average.
 
Of course. Same as his use of a private jet to fly from one climate junket to the next. As he explained; he and his climate pals are too important to be bound by the sorts of rules he’s proposing for the rest of us. He’s saving the world god damn it! He can do as he pleases.
 
"Everybody wants to save the world. Nobody wants to help Mom with dinner."

P.J. O'Rourke. The Master

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
 
Greg,

Politician just elected makes grand promise which won't reasonably be met. Gosh I'm feeling faint.

The issue isn't where this is going, it's going to be how its achieved and at what speed.

Grid reinforcement needs to be faster and setting targets impacts planning and the appeals against the pylons required.

So yes, current targets and systems make it impossible, but even last year the UK came up to about 85% non CO2 - prob with the French nuclear link....

If they get to some 100% days, that will be heralded as a success....

I agree the grid is the block, so this is one way to unblock it.

So yes, the Spectator, a right wing not exactly pro Labour party magazine so it's the sort of thing I would expect from them. Not that they are giving any alternatives here?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
Politicians taking the axe to our hard won energy systems goes far beyond making empty promises.
 
2023, individual renewables contributed the following1:

Wind power contributed 29.4% of the UK’s total electricity generation.
Biomass energy, the burning of renewable organic materials, contributed 5% to the renewable mix.
Solar power contributed 4.9% to the renewable mix
Hydropower, including tidal, contributed 1.8% to the renewable mix.

So there's that. Sure it peaked higher, but really it is the minimum that tells you how much more generation/storage you need, not even the average.


Of that the biomass is renewable in the long term but has a direct effect on CO2 now, since trees take time to grow.

They enact policies as a result of their election promises which have and will continue to destroy industries and increase prices.

Millibrand is looking at screwing up the new nuclear plants, which are the only technically and financially feasible solution to this mess that are renewable. I don't know if this is scaremongering, review does not equal cancellation.


Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
"continue to destroy industries and increase prices."

"taking the axe to our hard won energy systems "

All very vague here guys, we're supposed to be engineers.

Will green energy cost more than fossil based fuels - probably, but all good things come to an end. The 100% renewable stuff will never happen in reality, but if we get to 70-80% then we're going in the right direction for sure. Just burning coal and Gas until it runs out isn't going to work either.

I do agree that the politicians tend to gloss over the actual practical difficulties and issues, but there are enough bodies and companies providing more detailed advice to prevent the Armageddon sometimes predicted.

This is money is part of the The Mail group, yet another company not exactly identified with even centre right politics, so beware of what comes in and where it comes from.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
Bit old but fun

1604749359128_m4z1ew.png


Generating wind and solar is cheap. Storing them for the dark still nights/weeks is where the money is, but these batteries have a very low utilisation on average so they are expensive per MWh of usage.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
I think that's actually the best we can do if you read the whole article.

The power stations are already there so keeping them going is a relatively small cost. Most of the cost of gas fired per is errrr gas. Don't burn it you don't pay.

What else would you do?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
Gas turbines very little. The steam part takes a bit longer to get more efficiency, but the gas turbine part is very low.

Coal is much longer and did take some time but now the UK didn't have any. A quite remarkable change in my lifetime.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
Well you may remember a little thread I put together called a simple challenge. And one outcome of that was the tradeoff between storage and gas. Basically you will always allow as much gas backup rather than storage as your hypocrisy/realism/cynicism/whatever about CO2 targets allows, because storage is so expensive. I may not have posted that graph, but I did explore the idea.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
You should put this on a linear scale. I don't think the experts know how to read log scales.
 
...and to put the numbers in context Abu Dhabi's 5 GW nuclear plant came in at $30B, ie $6B/GW, with virtually no CO2 emitted. I particularly enjoy team stupid rabbiting on about this when you can just look at the cheese eating surrender monkeys, who have had cheap low CO2 generation for decades and are happily/profitably propping up the German greeny grid, helped by Poland's coal fired solution.

@TugboatEng hmm, I'm hoping we can wrestle system design out of the hands of the pollies and back into the hands of people who understand logs. As the Guardian article makes clear, it is happening, slowly, in the UK. Not yet in Australia, or California, or NY, or Germany, but maybe the UK's position as an islanded crash test dummy for Net Zero means they will have to actually work this stuff out. Australia will be next I think.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
I spent a moment operating (not engineering) a 30MW steam turbine plant. Maybe all of the important parts were 1/2 million pounds. That's two boilers and a steam turbine plus some short piping and 3000 gallons of water. The plant operated at 905 degrees F but let's say 530 degrees (saturation temp) was more representative of the average. That's a lot of heat to lose every time you shut the plant down.
 
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