Under plates grout 1

[Chster6]

The metal plate has about 10mm vertical spaces underneath it, is non-shrink grout or epoxy better filler or what other materials can be used to fill it that can take load that can go inside the 10mm spaces?

 

[dik]

I've used Sikadur 42 for almost decades...

Dik

 

[cvg]

Per Sika US website

Product Data Sheet
Edition 6.19.2012
SikaGrout® 212
Minimum application thickness: 1/2 in.
Typical maximum application thickness (neat) is 2"

Product Data Sheet
Edition 6.27.2012
Sikadur 42, Grout-Pak LE
The minimum void depth beneath the base-plate should be 1 in (25 mm), but 1.5 in (38 mm) is preferred.

 

[CELinOttawa]

Thanks for checking CVG; So it is JUST the Canadian Sika 212 spec that calls for minimum 25mm?!? Not impressed...

 

[dhengr]

What are the angles made of, and they don’t rust? Could use stainless steel shims or galvanize them. Why not make a bunch of square 75mm x 10mm thick shims out of the same mat’l.? Then make up a collection of various thin shims 75mm sq., when you have surveyed the gap variation, +/-. Then, in plan, punch a slot in the shims a little wider than the bolt dia. and beyond the center of the shim; it should terminate 15 or 20mm from the solid edge which will be exposed, when installed in your photo; and it should be an open slot at the opposite edge, for installation. Back-off the bolts a turn or so, retightening the bolts should take up gaps of fractions of a mm. Otherwise, leave that gap open to breath, drain and dry. That detail would be a real dog to dam for a flowable grout, and impossible to pack with a stiffer grout.

 

[CELinOttawa]

dhengr: That's a temporary solution; You're going to get rust jacking between the plates, even though they'd be the same material, the joints provide a rusting site. I've seen this many times in old bridges...

Grout.

 

[Chster6]

Notice rain from outside can get in the bars and rust them that is why I want to put grout or even epoxy in it.

What is sika "expensive option where available"? Are you talking of epoxy or another more expensive sika grout than 212?

To those who have handled non-shrink grouts. How flowable are they? Are they like shakes that you order at coffee shop? I haven't seen such before and can't imagine.

In your experience. When rain gets inside welded iron connections. Won't it rust the inside? Because if the welded connection in the photo got rusted, the whole frame may just fall leaving the angle bar grouted on the concrete edge.

 

[Chster6]

to add the 4th question from the above message, notice the zoomed attached picture of the gap with inserted 10mm bars. Can non-shrink grout flow in between the 10mm bars or should I remove the 10mm bars inserted in the gap? The reason I inserted them is to serve as shim but then a paper could be inserted under the 10mm bars so if I insert thin metal sheet under them and then put flowable grout on the left free end and in between the bars inserted, the question is whether the grout would flow into all the gap behind?

 

[CELinOttawa]

If you want to be very certain that you're going to get good filling, use a more specialised grout; Sika 300 is a good example. It is rated down to a 3mm gap as being non-shrink and non-metallic.

With long trench like this I would expect some cracking, but not lots... It is non-shrink after all!

A few more questions are raised by your photo:

- Where is this? (Nice shoes, by the way)
- What cause this gap? What was the original detail?
- How readily are the "rarer" Sika products available where you are?

 

[Chster6]

We don't have Sika 300.. only Sika 215 which still has 10mm minimize gap. I'm in Indonesia.

The gap is done on purpose by the accent installer so water won't be stuck if there is no gap since there is bound to be micro gap where water can stay or hide by some kind of capillary action and stay. He said if the gap is bigger, the water can drain easily by gravity. See attached picture of the entire accent taken from above. It's only bolded at the top so it's like hanging. That is why I need to put grout in the bottom to make the concrete take the load. Won't epoxy injection after sealing with putty be a better option and letting the bars in the gap stay? Or better to remove the bars before putting the sika 212 non-shrink group?

 

[CELinOttawa]

Bars with epoxy sounds like something a little "different" and you may be walking a fine line as to the applicability of this...

Ask the local Sika rep for advice if you aren't confident in all the people saying grout here. Also by involving Sika's local rep, they cannot claim you used a product incorrectly.

Well, of course they can, and will... It just is much less likely to stick.

 

[madmantrapper]

That's 1600 or so pounds hanging on those screws.

 

[Chster6]

This is the inside top details. The whole width of the accent is 2.3 meters wide by 3 meters height. The screws have 2" expansion bolts both in the inside top and outside (previous picture). They said it can carry the accent. But I want the accent to be carried at bottom too.

Can 10mm non-shrink grout be able to carry load? I was thinking of epoxy as it can fill all the gap, but at very small strain it can only carry light load... so I prefer non-shrink grout since the stress-strain are better.

Also to be sure the bottom can carry the load. I think I'll insert metal sheet to the 10mm bars shim.

 

[Ingenuity]

Can 10mm non-shrink grout be able to carry load? I was thinking of epoxy as it can fill all the gap, but at very small strain it can only carry light load... so I prefer non-shrink grout since the stress-strain are better.

If you went with a low-viscosity epoxy resin (not saying this is the best way to go in this application) for a thickness of 10mm you would be best to pre-place small aggregate (less than 10mm), them thoroughly seal (caulk) up all the edges, and gravity feed the resin. The aggregate will act as a heat sink to avoid thermo cracking of thickened/large mass resin.

Unless you fully seal up the edges/boundaries of the extent of grouting, you will get major leaking and a big mess to clean up! Speaking from experience

 

[MikeHalloran]

I have to agree with the accent installer; if you fill the gap with anything that does not also hermetically seal it (and grout won't do that), rainwater will wick into the resulting micro-gap and corrode the flat leg of the angle at the bottom of the accent assembly. The angle will also corrode with the gap present, but perhaps more uniformly, so it may have a longer life.

I cannot correlate the details shown in the three photos; are they all of the exact same object?

Chster6, how did this come to be your problem?

Why do you wish to fill a gap that a presumably experienced professional would prefer to leave open?




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[Chster6]

Yes they are the same object, the 3 pictures are taken of the bottom inside, top inside, and from the roof outside. Just imagine a rectangular accent sized 2.3 meters wide and 3 meters height.

In object like this. The natural thing is to have the concrete support the accent. But the installer wants to leave gap and hang it. I don't think it is stable. I thought the non-shrink grout can seal it. Won't it? If I use low viscosity epoxy (the same they use in sealing cracks) that can seal it and avoid any water seep. What would be the problem of thermo crack in the epoxy since it can still take the load? In a few days. Glass frames will be put over it so I can't access the bottom anymore.

 

[CELinOttawa]

Many epoxies give off heat while they cure... That can cause other materials to "misbehave" due to localised heating. That's the thermo crack issue in a nutshell.

 

[Chster6]

After discussion with installer, they said grout ok if sealant will be used since the grout part will be higher than the existing concrete and the angle bar is closed, only the end is open which would be sealed.

I purchased one bag of sika 212 from the retail shop. For those who have used this already. How do you know when you have used too much water? Won't it cause spaces in the mix just like water filling up the spaces in concrete between the aggregates and paste making it weak? Doesn't this occur in non-shrink grout? Why?

 

[Ingenuity]

I purchased one bag of sika 212 from the retail shop. For those who have used this already. How do you know when you have used too much water? Won't it cause spaces in the mix just like water filling up the spaces in concrete between the aggregates and paste making it weak? Doesn't this occur in non-shrink grout? Why?

Grab a copy of the technical/ product data sheet for this product or maybe refer to the bag for mixing instructions and water requirements depending on the characteristics you require.

Usually for grouts it will state: "For plastic grout use X liters of water per 20 kg bag" and "For flowable grout use Y liters of water per 20 kg bag". Y will be greater than X. Do NOT use more water than required. Use a mechanical mixer too and mix for the stated duration.

 

[CELinOttawa]

"How do you know when you have used too much water?"

When you add more than the bag says. If you haven't worked with t before. DO NOT try to do this by eye!

"Won't it cause spaces in the mix just like water filling up the spaces in concrete between the aggregates and paste making it weak?"

Yes and no. Water becomes an integral part of the grout, through the process of hydrolisation. The "magic" of non-shrink is doing this without shrinkage. Really good grouts do this without expanding at any stage as well. Note: While the more water you add, the lower a strength you get, it is not fair to say that it is "weak". Read the specs, stay within the parameters.

"Doesn't this occur in non-shrink grout? Why?"

Sure it does, but raising the w/c ratio is not the end of the world... This isn't flour; so long as the set flowable consistency product's properties meet your needs you're good to go.

And if you want to try and keep water out, try caulking around the base. That may buy you more time, but this is going to rust eventually. Should have been galvanised, in my opinion.

 

[Chster6]

When the non-shrink grout hardened, would it be able to take the load of the accent? or is it just there to fill in spaces?

In the case of baseplates where it is supposed to take loads. How can this occur when the grout just fill in the spaces?