US engineers need to be trained more like Asian and European counterp 11

[GregLocock]

Says Bob Lutz. Well, it is an interesting perspective. I'd add that he should stop letting his managers play at being engineers, but he's the boss, I guess.

I've got no particular objection to the main part of his argument, but I see no benefit in turning every engineer into a CAD user. In general I'll sketch you a solution on a sheet of paper, or a screendump.

Cheers

Greg

http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=47755&lk=rss

Full story follows:

USA: US engineers need to be trained more like Asian and European counterparts – Lutz
13 Apr 2005
Source: just-auto.com editorial team

GM executive Bob Lutz said Tuesday that US carmakers could streamline their design process if American engineers were trained more like their Asian and European counterparts.

"We are actually training our engineers to be managers while the rest of the world trains them to be doers," Lutz said during a speech at the annual conference of the Society of Automotive Engineers in Detroit, according to an AP report.

Lutz said Asian and European engineers are trained in drafting and can draw a new design on the spot when they run into problems, the report said. However, US engineers often need to call in designers to do the drawing and may take weeks to figure out a solution, he said.

"It's somewhat bureaucratized, and it's a slow process," Lutz said. "It's because we don't have the bone-deep understanding of what's in there and the ability to draw and model without pulling in a bunch of specialists."

Lutz said fewer youngsters grow up working on cars and playing with Erector sets, which give them the intuition they can't get from computers or mathematical models.

"Today everything is prepackaged and ready to go," Lutz reportedly said. "Worse yet, a lot of the tinkering that used to be done on cars is now prohibited by federal emissions regulations, in that everything is tamperproof."

Lutz said GM has been trying to combat the problem with a three-year-old program that trains engineers, including some in the middle of their careers, to do their own drafting.

"It's going to take a while to get all our engineers through this program, but believe me, it's going to be worth it," Lutz said, according to the AP report.




Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[BenDutro]

I was given that bit of info from a Ford Co. engineer lamenting the lack of profitability, ergo development/sales incentive in the domestic compact lineup.

The MSRP for a Focus SE 4 door is 13-20k, the 325i's is right at 28-31k.

Detroit has been chasing the fat margins for so long, they're blind to the fact that they've excluded themselves from the next market shift.

 

[GregLocock]

In plain English, BMW is a successful brand, that people will pay more for, even though the variable manufacturing cost of the product is just about the same. This gives the manufacturer more funds for development, thereby allowing greater investment in the next model, continuing the vicious circle. I think, in detail, he is wrong, by the way, in particular the engine, and probably the tires, don't 'look' especially cheap to me.

How much more does an IPod cost to make than the no-name brand equivalent? Five bucks at a rough guess. How much extra do they sell for? $150?


Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[cadcamguy]

US engineers need some hands on experience in machining parts. You wouldn't take piano lessons from someone who can't play the piano....

 

[epoisses]

Interesting... if engineering is about having grease under your finger nails, why is everybody upset when the plumber calls himself an engineer? I guess there are 2 schools of thought here (at least).

IMHO, having grease under your finger nails is indispensable if you were to design and build a car yourself, but as a part of an organisation of thousands of people, you can perfectly well engineer part of an engine or a suspension without ever having taken one apart and put it back with no pieces left. OK, a ME who does not know how a car engine works is the other extreme, I admit...

PS getting back to the Focus, in Europe it's considered a relatively cheap, well-built and popular car - there's still plenty of hope for Ford, guys...

 

[rbulsara]

epiosses:

you are missing the point...come out your office and see the real world too..

 

[moltenmetal]

Around here, if a plumber calls himself an engineer he's generally taking a significant paycut!

Yes, epoisses- you need to get out of your office a bit!

As customers of engineers what they dislike about using an engineer's services and THIS is exactly what they'll complain about: failures of imagination brought on by a lack of practicality and experience on the part of the engineer preparing the drawings and specifications.

An engineer who has no grease under his or her fingernails is courting disaster. It's only a matter of time before such a person's presumption of what physical reality is all about actually catches up with them and bites them severely in the behind! It's this lack of true practicality grounded in physical experience which has spread through our profession and gotten worse with the passing years. It's also something which is frightfully difficult to fix via the educational system.

 

[EddyC]

And someone name an employer who nowadays gives their employees the opportunity to get this practical experience. These days the employers expect the new hires to pass along knowledge to the employer instead of the other way around.

 

[JTreglio]

The reference to Asian engineers brings to mind a story told me by the owner of a company that made parts for the Nissan racing team. During his first visit to Japan, he was taken into a room full of engineers. The engineers' desks were in rows such that the engineers faced each other. At one end was the manager, with his desk facing down between the two lines of desks. The group secretary was at the opposite end from the manager, facing him. When he needed her, he would signal, and she would take the long walk to his desk.

When asked why the secretary was so far away, the American visitor was told that she was the lowest in seniority, so had to be at the far end. So the American suggested that the secretary's desk be moved to the manager's side, but facing the wall behind him so she wouldn't be in the seniority line. Of course, his Japanese host thought this idea would never work. Next time he visited the facility, all of the secretaries' desks were behind their managers, facing the wall.

Jim Treglio
Molecular Metallurgy, Inc.

 

[ekline]

Here's the perspective of a 31 year old ME. When I finished grad school, I went to a GM interview where they were processing applicants by the busload. They offered an offensively low salary, such that I didn't even bother to counter offer. I felt like they had wasted my time, and only wanted bodies, not talent or experience. So what kind of engineers do they get out of that process? Either people with no better offer (non likely very good engineers), or people who are good at negotiating for themselves (probably more management than engineering material, and likely to jump ship as soon as they see a better offer in a few years).

In my experience, many big companies are lazy about recruiting, and seem to take the attitude that they'll just hire numbers and fill the slots. Long term, though, the parasites find a way to hang on, and the more productive workers move on to something better. I've also found that some companies will offer incentives to come work there, but then don't offer much to stay, so as employees gain experience, their experience is more valued outside the company than in, so they leave.

 

[epoisses]

Getting back to the grease vs the office... heh heh heh... I knew I would trigger such a reaction... don't worry, I change my own oil!

But honestly, guys, I believe there is such thing as too much exposure to nuts and bolts. To explain where I'm coming from, I've spent many years in a refinery among process engineers who worked in the plant right next to the control room and the mechanics. And I've been astonished how fast a carthesian engineer can be turned into a mathematically challenged person whose only ability is to quote operators and produce only anecdotal evidence that never lead to an out-of-the-box improvement rather sound data and tested hypotheses.

A ME with grease under his fingers is fine, but you improve suspension X to develop suspension Y, I would really like you to demonstrate and CALCULATE why its performance is better than type X in whatever respect and NOT tell me that type Y's part Z can now even more easily be replaced.

IMHO engineers do need to limit their exposure to nuts and bolts to stay inventive and think outside the box. Don't you guys get your best ideas in bed at night, in the shower or on holidays?

 

[epoisses]

PS and I don't want to be negative on operators or mechanics at all, but they are just not engineers nor vice-versa

 

[epoisses]

PSPS if operators and mechanics are present during project gate review meeting, unaccessible valves and instruments will be flagged and prevented, although I must say that I consider those inexcusable errors even for an office engineer

 

[2dye4]

Epoisses

I agree you can be too close the work to see the whole.
I also think that mathematical analysis is the dividing
skill between techs and engineers.

 

[davefitz]

Well, there is a third way, not simply mathematical or experiencial. As I recall from reviewing a form of statistical quality control commonly used in Japan, there is another way to improve the design of complex mechanical components or systems.

If it is suspected that a complex component or system is not optimized in some way ( typically it fails too frequently or is more costly than a competitors) , then several steps are implemented to steadily progress toward improvement. First , complete formal record keeping of test data from all parts of the fabrication process are recorded.

Secondly, the data is reviewed to determine if there is a correlation ( statistical) between some aspect of the data and the failure rate. This statistical evaluation tends to expose hidden flaws and root causes not apparent to formally educted persons with preconcieved notions or prejudices. (Ie, the numbers don't lie)

Third, there is a brainstorm session between all workers , designers and managers that are involved in the production of the component, and all suggestions are recorded , however insignificant or "unqualified" they may be. This process tends to recognize forms of human intelligence and intuitive observation not recognized by traditional or formal educational methods.

Fourth , a critical review of all suggestions is made with an open mind, and the 3 most promising suggestions that may correct the 3 most deleterious aspects of the performance test data are implemented on a trial basis . Further test data is taken on the performance of the modified component, and compared to the prior baseline. The overall proces is repeated on the other, lower impact root causes as the major causes are addressed and found to be non-problematic.

Although our western chauvinism tends to downplay Japanese methods , by assuming we westerners are more creative by nature, the above proven method of statistical quality control has undoubtably been proven to be the basis of the overall better quality of most japanese products, and the exact same methods can be applied to very comples systems, such as large electiric power plants.