Use of PE after name 9

[NateB]

I am a registered professional engineer in a handful of states. Recently our office came across some articles that reference ethical issues surrounding the use of P.E. after the engineer's name. The idea is that the use of these initials can be misconstrued as registration in a state that an engineer is not licensed in.

For example, John Doe P.E., registered only in Maryland, gives his business card to a potential client in West Virginia. Clearly, soliciting work by falsely claiming that you are registered in WV is unethical; however, what if John Doe's business card has a MD address and John's office has engineers who are registered in WV.

Additionally, is it unethical to use P.E. on correspondence (letters, emails, etc.) for a project in a state in which the engineer is not registered? This would apply in the common case of a project manager who does the bulk of the design and contract administration work on a project but does not stamp the contract documents. Most of the correspondence will be written and signed by the project manager and will likely not require a seal and signature. This leads to a situation where the project manager will be placing their name and P.E. on correspondence in relation to a project in a state in which they are not registered. The PM at that point is not claiming to be registered in the state, but is a licensed professional in the state in which their design office is located and in the state shown on the letter head (or email).

We have read articles that suggest listing states of licensure after the name of the engineer as a way to clearly define licensure and avoid a misunderstanding. However, providing a list of states can also be detrimental to an engineering firm. The firm's clients may see states that are not listed and no longer feel comfortable using a particular engineer at that firm. However, not all engineers at one firm need to be registered in all states where they practice engineering. Not to mention, for some engineers a list of states would not fit on a business card.

I would appreciate any feedback on this issue.

Additional reading on this attached.

 

[rbulsara]

Do not read those articles.







Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[zdas04]

If you were a doctor and wrote a letter to someone in another state (or country) you would sign it "Doogie Howser, MD". If you were a lawyer, you would do the same. It is no different for engineers.

When I give someone in Wyoming (where I'm not licensed) my card with "David A Simpson, P.E.", I'm saying to them that I am licensed somewhere. A BUSINESS CARD IS NOT A CONTRACT. If they see the card and want to hire me as a to do something in Wyoming that requires a P.E. then if I accept the job I am possibly violating some regulation, but not certainly so. EPA has a regulation called Spill Prevention, Countermeasures, and Control (SPCC) that requires certification by a P.E. Recently one of my clients hired a P.E. licensed in Colorado to do an SPCC plan in New Mexico. My client's District Manager in New Mexico was uncomfortable with that and called the EPA. The answer he got was that the plan must be stamped by someone with a P.E. from some state. Their argument was that since there is no universal licensing, if someone has a license from any state, the EPA (according to one guy in one EPA district, this doesn't seem to be EPA policy) has to accept it.

David

 

[swertel]

In your correspondance, you just have to make sure that you don't imply that you are licensed in a state in which you are not actually licensed. That's all. In the event of business cards or email signatures, you typically place your company address as well as your name and title. Therefore, it's implied that you are licensed in the state in which the address is displayed and no others.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[IRstuff]

Sounds like a lot of fun for some lawyer...

One could argue that a business card is an "offer to practice," and as such, would be illegal in California, if not registered therein, qv. California PE Act para. 6730.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[djs]

On my signiture I list the state license number and the state for that number. End of confusion.

 

[JLSeagull]

My organization has a corporate business card policy on the intranet that requires listing the state or states after P.E. I submitted a business card request using that format and the engineering administrative assistant thought that I was crazy. Only one other person had requested cards in that manner; and he was another of the troublesome engineers who reads such policies. My cards arrived EXCLUDING the state.

Life

42

 

[Ron]

zdas04 said it nicely. A business card is not a contract!!

It is not an offer to provide engineering services. It is not a representation that you are licensed in any state other than "some" state.

State boards mostly have their heads up their a$$es. They persecute an engineer for not having the proper size seal or for not sealing every page of a bound set of drawings or any of a dozen other minutia of crap, while others are allowed to call themselves "engineers" without any intervention.

Services are services. Unless there is a code anomaly, or a soil issue unique to localities, there is very little reason to have individual state registrations or licensing. Licensing should be done on a national level, in concert with the examination....which is generally the same from state-to-state. The primary reason is the autonomy of individual state boards. They want to exist. The feel they need to exist. I agree; however, they need to police the profession, including those who

 

[Ron]

...somehow my previous post got sent without my finishing....damned laptop!!

Anyway....I agree; however, they need to police the profession, including those who usurp the term "engineer" by calling themselves such without having the license or qualifications....(OK you "exempt" guys...don't get your panties in a wad...I'm not talking to you). It just pisses me off every time I stop beside an air conditioning contractor at a stoplight and see on the side of his van "Air Engineers" or "Thermal Engineers" when they don't do any engineering and don't have engineers on staff (I know...'cause I check). They figure that "engineers" are smart guys...the public thinks so...so why not call ourselves "engineers"? Then the public will think we're smarter than the guy down the street who calls himself "air contractor".


I could stay on this soapbox all night....it would only increase my blood pressure.

Thanks, David.

 

[NateB]

I definitely agree on the misuse of the term "engineer" and "engineering." The term that bothers me the most is "value engineering." There is, in fact, no engineering that occurs... it is simply a contractor's idea to reduce cost. This typically requires re-engineering on our part.

My goal is to satisfy myself that using PE after my name is not going to result in a fine from some state that I am not registered in. I personally don't think it is unethical, but I just wish it were crystal clear what does and does not constitute a violation of regulations.

The best I can tell, as long as I am licensed in the state that is listed on my business cards, letter head and emails I should be okay to use PE freely without listing the states I am registered in.

 

[Ron]

NateB...I promise I won't be long on this soapbox! "Value Engineering", as you note, usually has nothing to do with engineering and in fact, often results in "de-engineering". It also has nothing to do with "value", except that developers and owners usually equate cost reduction to value on the front end, only to be ready to point their fingers when it turns to crap on the back end.

 

[IRstuff]

If you expect to be distributing your business cards out of state, I think there's all the more reason to include the states in which you are licensed.

Otherwise, what's the point of the card? You don't want to disappoint people in states where you're not licensed, and you want to compete against others who do list the same state that you're qualified in, no?

Given two cards, one that clearly states licensing in the state I'm interested in, and one that doesn't, who would you think I would call first?

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[zdas04]

I don't know about you, but I have one card. It doesn't list states that I'm licensed in, just says I'm a P.E. I hand this card out all over the world, even in states where I'm not licensed and do work that doesn't require a P.E. (most work does not). I present at conferences a lot and I would be surprised if my card has not found itself to all 50 states. If someone finds it and calls, we have a conversation, if what they are looking for requires a P.E. in a state where I'm not licensed then I decline that particular work. I would much rather have a converstation that a policy.

I've only had confusion once that I know of. A client asked me to design an evaporation pond in a state where I'm not licensed. I looked at the regs and saw that the pond design had to be stamped. I explained the problem and declined the job. They are still my client and I still do work for them in that state.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

"Life is nature's way of preserving meat" The Master on Dr. Who

 

[NateB]

IRstuff, I agree with your statement, if you or others at your firm are not registered in state X. At that point I would make a statement such as, "My firm is not currently registered in X, but we can obtain a license should the project move forward."

On the other hand, what if I am distributing my card on behalf of my company. If an engineer at my firm is in fact regsistered in state X there is no reason for me to put doubt in a potential clients mind by listing MY states of registration on my card (i.e, the lack of mention of state X on my card could loose our firm the project).

If I do end up acquiring my license in state X, I would then also need to add that state to my buisness cards... more money.

 

[JLSeagull]

A problem could exist if the person was licensed in a different state - and not the state reflected on the business card address - and had PE after her name.

 

[bridgebuster]

NateB: See if this helps; it's a link to the Pennsylvania Board's interpretation of the use of PE.

http://www.dos.state.pa.us/bpoa/lib/bpoa/20/eng_board/engineering_summer_2009_final.pdf

If you're heading from MD to WV via PA don't worry if you give someone your business card you won't be persecuted (although it wasn't always this way here.)

As a side note, I'm also registered in NJ and I've read about disciplinary actions taken because the seal was the wrong size or the title block was incorrect. I agree with Ron: Persecuted.

 

[IRstuff]

While, offhand, the size of the seal being wrong seems a low-level offense, authentication requires that the customer have simple means of determining such.

If seals can have arbitrary sizes and title blocks can be created willy-nilly, how is the customer to know that every document was signed and sealed by a legitimate authority?

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Ron]

Seals are manufactured in a narrow size range, from about 1-5/8" to 2", maybe as large as 2-1/4". The visually discernible difference between a 1-5/8" seal and a 1-7/8" seal is negligible, yet seemingly important to the bureaucrats.

The title block thing is generally for a requirement of minimum information (name, address, license number, business authorization number, date).

 

[stevenal]

Regarding zdas04's post regarding the EPA, EPA is not responsible for enforcing the individual state's licensure laws. The Colorado PE might want to check with the New Mexico board on this before stamping those out of state SPCC plans. Federal environmental laws might be satisfied while state licensing laws are not.

 

[zdas04]

That is what I'm finding. A New Mexico SPCC Plan stamped by a Colorado P.E. satisfies the EPA (since they are required to give "full faith and credence" to the licensing laws in every state and they are not responsible for enforcing New Mexico laws), but the New Mexico regulations require a New Mexico Stamp for things stamped within New Mexico. I haven't heard of a board action on this, but in informal conversations with the board they were pretty sure that the Colorado P.E. was in violation of the proscription against "holding yourself out to the public as an Engineer" in New Mexico if they didn't have a New Mexico Licence.

David