Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included? 3

[ConstantEffort]

Is there even a perception of conflict of interest if a vendor pays my way to tour their out-of-town fabrication facility? Single day, there and back, one meal, no side trips. The catch... they're ferrying me back and forth in a private jet.

That seems to go beyond the minimal value arrangements I've stuck to in the past (e.g. a $10 lunch).

This is not the first vendor to offer to pay my way to tour a facility, but I've always been able to bow out on account of airline travel taking too much time. I'm running out of graceful excuses when the Lear can land 4 miles from my front door and 1/2 mile from their facility.

Gut says don't do it. Rationalizing says I would actually learn something. The means of transportation serves no lasting benefit to me, but my honest self has to admit that there's some glam factor to flying a private jet.

 

[KENAT]

I'd say this comes down to any local legal/regulatory issues in your location or imposed by customers and to any company policies.

At a previous employer a customer wanted us to do them a favor so I got to fly on their private shuttle. No big deal.

Maybe it's a cultural thing, the US seems a bit more uptight about this kind of thing than the UK did.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[IRstuff]

"This is not the first vendor to offer to pay my way to tour a facility, but I've always been able to bow out on account of airline travel taking too much time. I'm running out of graceful excuses when the Lear can land 4 miles from my front door and 1/2 mile from their facility."

Rules are rules; if you have them, where's the issue?

"Gut says don't do it. Rationalizing says I would actually learn something. The means of transportation serves no lasting benefit to me, but my honest self has to admit that there's some glam factor to flying a private jet."

Who's paying for YOUR time? Can you rationally not be biased in favor of this company in your future dealings at your company? Even assuming you are not overtly influenced, just the mere fact that you now know more about this company than the cohort of this company's nebulous competitors , gives them a leg up. Their objective is not to reward you, per se, but simply yo sway your opinion.

TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529

 

[hokie66]

If inspection of their facilities is important in your assessment of vendors, and all vendors are given the same opportunity, I see nothing wrong with accepting the transportation available. A ride in an airplane is not an inducement in today's times.

 

[zdas04]

If seeing the factory adds value, then pay your own way. There is no way that accepting a ride in the Lear passes the red-face test. I've been offered a bunch of these sweetheart trips over the years (the last one in May of this year). Every time I've looked at it and decided to go or not go. In May I decided to go, so I bought an airplane ticket and spent 3 days (I live in an air-service challenged area) out of the office. Fascinating, and since they paid nothing out of pocket I'm free to evaluate the facility objectively and decide that they aren't on the list of manufacturers of that particular product that I recommend. I don't know if I'd have reached the same conclusion if they'd picked me up in a jet.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

 

[PEDARRIN2]

If you feel an obligation to favor this vendor in the future - they have done their job.

I have been on a couple of factory tours and even taken out to a local horse race park by the company brass. I was in a group of several engineers, contractors, reps. I learned more about how they produced their product, how their quality control worked, and many other things which cannot be known from a cut sheet or even seeing the finished product.

However, I, in no way, felt obligated to favor this vendor due to the trip. They make good product, which I specify a lot of, but I specified a lot of them prior to the trip.

Unless your company has rules against it, go to the tour, learn all you can, enjoy the experience, then come back and do your job based upon what you learned. If you specify them more due to increased knowledge garnered from the trip, do not feel bad about it.

 

[truckandbus]

After clearing the trip with your boss, you could review with your local compliance or legal rep, but it doesn't sound like it would be an issue. My limited experience with corporate flights is that they are nothing special. If something strange happens during the trip (like they load up golf clubs or divert to Vegas) let your compliance people know when you get back

 

[coloeng]

You have to ask yourself, and maybe your employer, if a tour of their facility is worth the time and cost. Then ask yourself if you would feel the same if they offered to take you there on a bus or drive you in a car. The jet is just a mode of transportation, which in this case will take less of your time to get there and back. So long as there are no additional perks that they try to give you that might be inappropriate I would see no problem with going on the tour. It has to be worth the time in terms of gained knowledge to both you and your employer.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

If they break out lobster thermidor, caviar, and some Johnnie Walker on the plane ride, wouldn't that be equivalent to a fancy dinner? That alone may/may not break your company's compliance rules.

Of course, if they toss you a small packet of peanuts...

I always wonder where the buck stops. If a customer wants to see your facility, make every effort to accommodate them and make it available for a tour... but it's a slippery slope when you start offering a private jet, limo rides, etc. No two ways about it, you are attempting to buy their loyalty, no matter how big/small the payment.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[tickle]

From the Vendor's side, they need to sell its facility. It sounds like they would benefit from getting your business. There is an obstacle to getting your business, and that is you seeing the facility and then there is an obstacle in getting you to the facility. Breaking down those obstacles, one solution is to put you on a jet to make it as easy as possible for you.
From the view point of your company; it is looking for a vendor that can offer a solution. The Vendor in question, potentially has that solution but your company needs to evaluate and satisfy itself that the risk is minimal / acceptable.
I think, adopting this mentality, it is easier to objectively visit the facilityand assess its suitability. There is nothing stopping you returning saying "No", "No, but...", "We'll give you a trial" or even "Yes, you are just the thing we are looking for"
If there is no benefit to your organisation, then do not do it. If there is a benefit, that should be quantified and you should ensure that the direct benefit is tangible. ie if your company will only save $100 a year, it is probably not justified. If it saves three weeks and $100,000 per month then it is justified.

 

[Ron]

Agree with zdas04 on this one. Don't take anything from a supplier. Leaves you free to offer opinions as you see fit.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Breaking down those obstacles, one solution is to put you on a jet to make it as easy as possible for you.

By that same logic, politicians need to see what their "constituents" (businesses in their district) are are doing to improve the economy... so they fly him home from D.C. on their private jet. Come election time, he'll be reminded of that fast and comfortable ride home.

Slippery slope, and there's a reason politicians aren't supposed to accept such "gifts". Same should apply here...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[hokie66]

I still don't see that a ride in a Lear jet is an inducement. To me, it is torture. But if there are any real freebies, I agree, refuse.

 

[IRstuff]

"it is easier to objectively visit the facility and assess its suitability. "

Of course it does, but the point is that you've not done the same thing with any of this company's competitors; that slides it back into the subjective column. The mere fact that you've seen the inside of one factory, but not the others, already casts a bias in your mind, since you have way too much data about this one vendor. Another vendor says," We've got 150,000 sq. ft. of manufacturing floor space we can dedicate to your product," and your mental picture is of facility you visited. How can that be objective anymore?

As with the case of lobbyists, we're not talking about overt purchase of consideration, but simply, the slight bias induced by the access to your mind that was not granted to anyone else. If it wasn't effective, they wouldn't offer it, so they are expecting to sway some percentage of the people they offer this trip to.


TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529

 

[ajack1]

I do find some of the replies here amazing, maybe as Kenat says possibly a US / UK thing.

Clearly they are offering to show you around their facility to try and show they do things better than X and would like to have your business, however if they sent you a flyer in the post or a virtual tour on a flash drive they would be doing the same, if you read or watched either of those would you suddenly become incapable of making a rational and unbiased decision? Heaven forbid you should wipe the flash drive and use it for personal use.

If you paid your own airfare, could they pick you up at the airport? Once in the facility could they offer you a bottle of water or a cup of coffee or even go wild and try and bribe you with a sandwich?

It is not like the “reward” is tied to you giving them an order, you are still free to say no.

Paying your expenses to visit their facility seems perfectly acceptable to me, even if a Lear jet is extreme, just as providing you with food and drink during the visit is. Offering a personal benefit based on you giving them an order is a completely different matter.
I am just glad I work where I don’t have to comply with this political BS and for what it is worth my take would be if you can afford to do this your margins are too high we need to review the costs.

 

[zdas04]

When I worked for a corporation (before the days of cast-in-stone policies) my group had one inviolable rule "never accept a gift that you can't reciprocate in kind". They give you a hat? You can give them a hat. They buy lunch. You can buy lunch. They give you a plant tour? You give them a field tour. etc. That means that since we didn't have access to the corporate hunting lodge we couldn't accept a "working weekend" in the vendor's corporate hunting lodge. We didn't have access to the company's executive planes so we couldn't accept rides on vendor's company planes. I've lived by that rule ever since.

Every department had their own rules. One department relied on the "just because you go duck hunting in Louisiana doesn't mean that you'll act counter to the company interest. When the investigations of that department were over: (1) the VP of the department had been indicted; (2) all of his direct reports signed consent agreements to liquidate the "gifts" (up to and including a very nice condo in Vail, CO) and return the proceeds to the vendor and they were all fired; (3) with one exception everyone in the department was fired (the exception had only been in the department a month); and (4) everyone in the corporation had to sign corporate policies on gifts and we had to disclose any gift received with a value greater than $1 (including lunches) in an annual report. The simple rule that my department head implemented worked so much better.

We also had to attend annual "ethics training" where the lawyers would yell at us. One guy used an example. A vendor says "we're going to the same conference, why don't you ride with us on the corporate jet?". You accept. He offers a plant tour and you and he fly down there on their company jet. You accept. Then you are going to a meeting out of state and tell him that it is going to take you 3 days to get to a remote site and he puts the jet at your disposal. On that trip you learn that the "flight attendant" is actually a prostitute paid for by the vendor and would be delighted to provide personalized in-flight service. Then the lawyer asked if the last flight was acceptable. Most in the class said "no". Then he worked his way back toward the first flight and more people were in the "acceptable" column with each flight till most of the class thought the "we're going anyway and have an empty seat" flight was ok. The lawyer said that the corporation did not see any difference between any of the flights.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

 

[MacGyverS2000]

LPS for zdas... I think the first paragraph sums up my definition of "acceptable" towards this issue nicely.

And the last paragraph points out the exact slippery slope I tried to earlier.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[IRstuff]

"Clearly they are offering to show you around their facility to try and show they do things better than X and would like to have your business, however if they sent you a flyer in the post or a virtual tour on a flash drive they would be doing the same, if you read or watched either of those would you suddenly become incapable of making a rational and unbiased decision? Heaven forbid you should wipe the flash drive and use it for personal use."

A flash drive brochure equates to an in-plant visit and corporate jet flight? $2 vs. $3000?

TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529

 

[KENAT]

ajack, a few months ago we had to undergo a fraud prevention training - it was self paced on line and they tried to make it look like a news report or similar using an old Channel 4 (or one of those) news anchor. While I diligently went thru it I have to admit I don't remember much detail.

Certainly the appearance of impropriety is very significant not just any impropriety itself.

ConstantEffort do you have a manager you can bounce this off?

Are you in a position that if take this flight and then do buy their product that you can make a clear disclaimer about having had a visit to their factory paid by them?

Do you have colleagues or clients that would be likely to perceive this as impropriety?

Do you actually think the flight could influence your decision? As ajack mentions it might even be a negative impact if you think the fact they have a jet to fly you implies they're charging too much.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[JedClampett]

In Florida, there's been a huge over-reaction to some very public bribery issues. Some utility employees were caught taking money to favor certain vendors. Obviously, this is a huge no-no, and they ended up in jail or at least losing their jobs.
But what is interesting is how they've restricted what activities their employees can participate in. It used to be buying a lunch for an employee was no big deal. You talked business, you talked about the kids, and you picked up the tab. I didn't expect anything. Now most utility employees politely decline a lunch invite. And the ones that will go to lunch, absolutely insist on paying for their own lunch. I went to lunch with an employee and she had to hand me $15 to cover her part. It actually was a pain for me to fill out my expenses.
I see this going this way for a while, then reverting back to a little common sense.
If you're worried about taking a jet to a facility, tell them you'll go only if you can reimburse them for the commercial cost of the transportation.