Views on submitting native files 1

[dozer]

I wondering what other's policy on releasing native analysis files (structural files like STAAD or RISA or pipe stress like Caesar II) to clients for review is. Historically, at companies I've worked at we typically don't do it. I have had a few cases where we are working closely with a client that is an engineering firm and we have released structural analysis input files that they can run themselves at their request.

I used to have a boss that claimed if someone reviewed calcs at that level then they were taking on responsibility for the design. I don't know if this is just something he said to get people to back off or if there is actually some validity to that legally.

I'm not crazy about handing out native files for a couple of reasons. For one, a less than scrupulous company might take your file and just change some dimensions and use it to create their own design. Perhaps a bit far fetched but I suppose it could happen, though I don't lay awake at night worrying about that. Another reason is that I've found when you give someone that much data they tend to question a lot of things. Heck, I'm guilty of that. If I get a STAAD (structural analysis) file from somebody I'll invariably find things that I would have done different. Maybe their judgment was that offsets were insignificant and didn't include them. I might not be convinced and think they should have modeled them. Now we're in a pissin' contest to see who will prevail.

 

[IRstuff]

I think I actually remember that thread when it was live. gack...

In any case, I don't think it's a question of commodity or not; I'm not even sure how one gets to that conclusion. As you described in that thread, there was a time that transparency was a novelty, but in these times, transparency is mandatory. One reason is that the complexity of the designs being built today is substantially higher than before, and design margins are slimmer.

The notion of a permanent record that can be trusted to be a true reflection of the original submittal works both ways; by the same token where we might worry about customers altering drawings or calculations, we might likewise worry that an engineer alters the calculations, for whatever reason, or that the engineer either retires or dies, and the records are no longer recoverable. As these calculations pertain to the very heart of the PE license, public safety, it's all the more necessary that such calculations are retained for the duration of the structure's existence. If the structure fails or is modified, then those calculations would be the basis by which the design is evaluated. Trying to figure out someone else's design without such records is otherwise guesswork, at best.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[SandCounter]

When I hire out engineering, I like to make it clear that all work and native files become property of the client and that the cost to the client should take this into account. I have seen where native files are considered IP and not shared, but this is understood at the outset. That said, I don't believe live files should be the documents of record. I like to PDF the report/output as the final say.

Many, many times I've been tasked to design/calculate in parallel with hired engineering work and then work with the consultant to identify and resolve differences as a means of peer review. Sharing of native files is very beneficial in these cases.

 

[MrHershey]

If it's a peer review type issue I've also seen issues with intellectual property. Worry is that if they're doing something unique that another firm reviewing it could start doing it themselves and take a bite out of the original firm's competitive advantage. Especially if they've put a lot of effort into developing or researching whatever they're doing.

 

[Ron]

In my state, as in many, it is not legal to submit an engineering file or document that can be changed by others!

 

[JAE]

In my state, as in many, it is not legal to submit an engineering file or document that can be changed by others!

Ron - I realize that this is the intent of a lot of US states in mandating digital signatures, but in this day and age of photoshop, etc. it seems to me that ANYTHING can be altered....am I right?

The digital signature, embedded in an electronic document, will certainly "turn off" if the document is changed....but the graphic used by the digital signature, usually some kind of check mark vs. an exclamation point, can be faked in on a pdf where a potential user down the line wouldn't know that anything had changed....with today's snipping and screen shot tools you can essentially do anything graphically.

This doesn't mean that authorities, investigating a problem/collapse, couldn't determine that the EOR didn't supply a particular detail by investigating the source file....it seems to me it would just would allow others to fake in my seal/signature and digital signature if they really wanted to.

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[dozer]

Ron, I would be curious to see just how that law is written. I scanned Texas law and couldn't find anything like that. It seems like a dubious law to me. Like JAE was saying it's pretty easy to change stuff. Shoot, even if you gave someone a hardcopy they could whip out the ole white-out and change it. Not very elegant or convincing, but still changeable, so in your state that would have been illegal to submit. I know I'm taking it to the extreme but I'm just trying to illustrate why that law makes no sense to me.

 

[SandCounter]

I'm also interested to see the text of the law.

 

[BUGGAR]

Someone brought up a good point. I used to write a lot of engineering programs in Basic (still do). It's pretty hard to release that source code and keep a hold on it as intellectual property. I buried easter eggs in my beam design program and found plan checkers were using my program to check other engineer's calcs.

 

[tickle]

Ron

I believe there is a difference between submitting a file and providing the file to a client. I use AutoCAD files as an example, the client will need the native to allow it to update in the future (I am basing my comments on OnG industry, but it could be applicable to structural drawings as well)

Tickle