Virginia (and everywhere else) SE License Discussion 5

[Simba13]

Just kind of a general inquiry here. I'm trying to get people's thoughts on taking the SE exam. Very typical post I know, but I have a couple specific things I'm curious about. I just took and passed the PE and I'm in no rush to get back to studying. But I feel like I use so much software at work that I wouldn't mind eventually buckling down and really studying hand-calcs/codes etc, that's really the stuff I enjoy more about our profession in the first place.

But hear me out, is it just me, or is the value proposition of taking the SE in a non-SE state kind of strange? I studied for about 200 hours for the PE, and I expect I'll get a decent pay bump when I finish my 4 years and actually get my license. But what do you actually get professionally for getting the SE after that point, a test for which I'll need to study about 400 hours (probably more, I'm not the greatest test taker)? I feel like my firm pushes it a fair amount, and I see the EITs burning themselves out trying to not only study but keep up with their workloads at the same time.

I know it's a learning thing, and a respect thing, and just kind of a general gold star on your resume but does anyone working in the industry feel like the PE is just fine or have they felt held back by not getting the SE? I'm also curious about your thoughts on which states will eventually go SE, is it just inevitable that they all go SE eventually? I'm in Virginia, so I'm especially interested in what people like phamENG and Hokie think here as we're in the same neck of the woods. I feel like we're kind of in the middle of the distribution as far as this goes, not a hyper bureaucracy pro state, but then there's Northern Virginia... nuff said. Do you think we go SE in the next 20 years?

I'm not one of those boo-hooers on structural engineering, and like I said I actually wouldn't mind studying some of this stuff (after a while). But at the end of the day it is primarily just a job and some kind of cost-benefit analysis is warranted when you're talking about sacrificing 6 months of your life and potentially thousands of dollars (my firm only covers the first try) on test registration, a course, books etc especially when the pass rate is so low. I work with a lot of overachievers which I actually love btw but I almost feel guilty when I think the PE is just fine while I see them banging their heads against the SE. Am I alone here? What do you all think? Is there any additional benefit where you work for the SE over the PE? And if so, is it worth it? I bet the people that have passed it say it's worth it now that it's over, but what about the people that have taken it a few times and haven't passed...

Very curious on your thoughts with this. Thanks!

 

[phamENG]

If you're staying here, PE is fine. By the time we go SE, you'll probably be grandfathered. I feel zero restrictions by not having my SE. I'd like to do it, but I'm a nerd. I'll probably wait until I get a teaching gig.

Now if you want to design schools in California, or anything in Illinois, then you'd better get cracking. Otherwise, there's no real need.

 

[JStephen]

My thoughts:
-I can't speak for others, but I didn't spend anywhere near 200 hours studying for the FE/PE exams- more like 20 hours. And that was after I'd been out of college for 7 or 8 years.
-When I first got licensed, I didn't anticipate ever needing a license in a second state. Now I'm licensed in 24 states or so. Sometimes your future doesn't work out like you had it planned, and you wind up elsewhere.
-My degrees and licenses are ME, my work overlaps with CE/SE. And yes, it is somewhat limiting not being eligible for an SE. I'm not TOO far from retirement, don't plan to move, so I should be good for the duration, but it is a limitation. If I could study a few more hours and take another test and fix it, I would.
-If you're looking at an SE in your home state, take a look and see what it takes to get one elsewhere- CA, NY, for example- and try to work things so you're eligible in other places, too, as much as feasible.
-On phamENG's last comment, in years past, I was involved in various tank jobs in CA, and while the state rules would clearly allow a CE to do all the work we did, the customers nearly always required an SE seal. I don't know if that's common in other industries or states, though.

 

[DrZoidberWoop]

Whatever you decide, make sure you do it before you have multiple children! I considered taking the SE myself, but decided the time would be better spent improving my practical engineering skills, like coding, contemporary computer-aided methods, and fabrication/management practices.

If one focused on the exam driven route, instead of the practical engineering skills route, I always imagined the conversation at the interview would go something like this:
Employer: "So, our company integrates analysis and design programs X and Y into program Z to generate our contract drawings. Do you have experience using the advanced functions of X, Y, or Z?"
Me: "No. I have little to no experience with those programs and I would have to learn your process from the ground up."
Employer: "Well, this is a senior position. How do you foresee yourself providing engineering value concurrent with your experience and title?"
Me: "Uhhhhh, I've got these letters next to my name, right here...... See? I can stamp more important things" (Awkward pause....)

 

[phamENG]

I thought on this a little more and have a few more comments.

1) You're in Northern Virginia. That puts you near DC and, at least in the old work-from-the-office paradigm, makes you a prime candidate for employment at a megafirm's DC office. The SE could be valuable there. Their Chicago office is backed up? That's okay, Simba, SE in the DC office can take it. It could also take you out of the running for some smaller, niche firms that provide consulting services across the country. I worked in the sign business briefly for one of the largest sign manufacturers in the world - fitting out new stadiums, high rise letter, etc. - and there were only a couple of firms that could support us. They were licensed in all 50 states, and I think one of them had a handful of international licenses/certifications for overseas jobs. These firms were small - only a handful of engineers - but they had a steady supply of working flowing through the door.

2) Mobility is important. I see JStephen already brought it up. Not sure how tied down you are, but if you're on the 'traditional' career path and don't have your PE yet, I'm guessing not very. What happens if you get married and your spouse gets an amazing job offer to go teach at UC Berkley, or a job at Coke Headquarters in Atlanta, or something in Chicago (commodities trader? I don't know what happens in Chicago.)? Guess what - your career hits a wall if you move. All of those places require an SE at some level, and there are more to follow.

3) There is certainly a big push for SE licensure from a lot of the professional organizations. I wouldn't be surprised if more states follow. It's only going to take one or two more really devastating hurricanes and I bet the Gulf Coast states and South Carolina will join GA in adopting SE in some form. Texas and North Carolina, I doubt it. If a big one hits here and knocks half of Virginia Beach into the Atlantic, we might join up to.

 

[271828]

Whatever you decide, make sure you do it before you have multiple children!

That's the truth! LOL

I agree with phamENG's comments about big firms in DC and mobility. If those are important to you, then getting the SE while you're (presumably) still young would be nice.

I think you're over-doing it: I studied about 100 hours combined for what used to be called the Strl I and Strl II exams, which would be roughly equivalent to PE and SE now.

It doesn't sounds like you really want to do this. Life's too short, so if that's the case then forget it. There are many principals out there with PEs.

 

[Simba13]

phamENG
Lol, that would be quite the hurricane, let's hope that doesn't happen. But yeah I hear what you're saying, first of all I do indeed work for one of those firms in DC, and I hadn't thought of how useful it would be working with the other offices, that's a fair point. I think the mobility point makes sense as well, although there's nothing that could get me to move to the west coast. That being said, somewhere else on the east coast isn't out of the question. Thanks for your comments, I think in the end, I get maybe 1 or so more years of experience and then re-assess/see how I feel about it, it feels like experience is much more important on the SE than the PE. Though I would probably prefer to take it before it goes computer based, no idea how that's going to work... I guess fundamentally it just feels a little weird, we have all of these conversations about burnout, high turnover, and people just outright leaving the field and at the same time turn around and push this incredibly hard test that has what I feel is only a marginal and arguably situational advantage over the PE, just is what it is I guess...

JStephen That's impressive only passing after 20 hours, I don't know how the Mechanical compares to the Civil: Structural but I can absolutely say that I wouldn't have passed with that much study time, just too many topics. But what you're saying definitely makes sense, it pays to have the flexibility if you can get it, just wish the SE wasn't such an intense venture.

DrZoiberWoop No issues there, if anything I feel like we use too much software but I'm at least getting well trained in those.

271828 You think? I've heard 400 hours/6 months for vertical and lateral combined is about what people usually put into studying for it, though I'm sure people can pass with less. Yeah, I mean, does anyone really WANT to take the SE? . We'll see, once I refresh myself a bit after all that studying I might feel differently.

 

[phamENG]

My trick for the PE was to take a study course. Cost an extra $1500, but it was 100% worth every penny. All of the instructors had been test writers on previous cycles. Spoiler alert: they don't change the questions very often. So I watched the videos, tabbed/highlighted the notes and examples, and went to the test. Over half the questions were word for word from the study course material practice tests, but with different numbers. I'm not even sure I hit 20 hours. But then I also had the advantage of an incredibly diverse work portfolio. I had designed or analyzed buildings based on every code reference on the exam save AASHTO, but I wasn't completely unfamiliar with it as I'd done a couple pedestrian bridges using the AASHTO supplement. And since my firm at the time lacked a real mentorship/QC program....I had already learned to swim on my own. This is one of the reasons I'm not really on board on with taking the test early - work experience is what got me through the test.

As for the high turnover rate and burnout - that's not a side effect of the test. That's a side effect of poor management - business, project, client, etc. Setting realistic fees and expectations is the best way to manage that.

 

[OldDawgNewTricks]

The amount of study time largely depends on the quality and quantity of work experience you have. If one has 3 to 5 years of varied experience with all the topics that will be on the PE and SE tests (concrete, steel, masonry, wood, seismic, etc.), then the study time will be minimal. I mostly just did practice exam problems over several weeks before the exams. But if you don't have that type of work experience, you will need to spend much more time learning the material and codes from scratch (especially if taking the exams early in states where the work experience is not required to be completed before taking the exams).

As an employer, I would value the SE much more than experience using software. At least for the types of software that my firm uses, it's really not that difficult to get up to speed. But I work mostly in western states where the SE is the norm so YMMV.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

It's definitely a trade off. It does signal to anyone you work with that you jumped through an extra hurdle in your career. It opens more doors for interviews and such. Gives you a little more respect by default. Personally, I think your current employer should give you a raise for getting it. After all, hey probably can bill you out at a higher rate once you get it. Other employers that might be looking to higher you would probably bring you in at a higher rate because of it.

I look at it the difference between a PE and SE as similar to the difference between BS and MS. Having a master's degree means that you just spent a little more time in school. Having an SE just means you were able to pass a more difficult test. Both are accomplishments, but neither really says how good of an engineer you are or how competent at your job you are.

 

[271828]

Yeah, I mean, does anyone really WANT to take the SE? tongue. We'll see, once I refresh myself a bit after all that studying I might feel differently.

We engineers pretend it's all about the cost / benefit ratio, blah blah blah. We're still human and driven by emotion.

What do you just WANT to do?

 

[sticksandtriangles]

My personal opinion on your situation:

Do not go and study 400 hours Simba! Get your feet wet in design, take some time to really dive into the things that interest you. At least wait until you have your PE from your (4) years of experience. If you are like most people on eng tips, you already enjoy structural engineering and learning will happen organically.

I am at the point in my career where I am considering taking the SE exam, but I would probably go in and wing it (maybe 40 hrs of studying). I value my time and the best case scenario is a blind squirrel finds a nut and passes. Worst case, I am out $500 bucks and get an awesome diagnostic report on where I need to improve.

S&T -

http://www.re-tug.com

 

[WARose]

Unless you are looking to get low-balled in terms of salary.....there is no such thing as too many credentials. If you aren't going to do it, get licensed in all the states you will need ASAP. I say that because of (for example) the debacle in implementing the SE recently in Georgia. You had to have been licensed there since 2010 (IIRC) to get grandfathered in.

That's the wild card in all this: how will the grandfather clauses work? Stuff like that is why I got the SE back in 2009. (And fortunately, most states are still recognizing the "old" SE exam (i.e. SE I & II).)

 

[Simba13]

phamENG yep, I took a course for the PE as well, it was extremely helpful. And yeah, I didn't really mean that the SE was causing burnout, just that it's an extra thing on top of it.

sticksandtriangles I think that makes sense, except that so much of what I'm learning is software, it's not super transferrable to hand-calcs and the kind of stuff I need for the SE, but it's still early and I'm not in a huge rush or anything, hopefully that stuff will come eventually.

WARose That's actually a really good point, it's not very far off, and I'll probably start putting my documentation together fairly soon.

I think this is more of a general response to what a few of you all are saying, which is that work experience is in a sense studying for the SE. I feel like the majority of my time is spent in computer models, it's been quite a while since I've designed anything by hand. I guess I just need to make more of a point of doing more hand-calc checks but when I do stuff like that I end up just feeling like I'm wasting time/the budget purely for the sake of educating myself rather than working.

I really appreciate all of your comments, I think I might have just been overthinking things, I think I still have a little tunnel vision from work + studying so much, and just need to chillax.

 

[phamENG]

purely for the sake of educating myself rather than working

Nonsense. We are in a knowledge industry. Our primary product is the result of direct application of knowledge. If your career progression is not based on building a larger body of knowledge from which to draw, you're doing it wrong. The tools we use - analysis programs, modeling software, etc. - are very important. But it's more important that your designs don't grow faster than your abilities. If you don't understand what the software program is doing on at least a basic level, you shouldn't be using it. Taking time to check your models with hand calc verifications isn't a waste of time - it's good QC and good skill building. If your boss has a problem with it, then make him/her understand that you're only as valuable to the company as an engineer as you are capable of actually doing engineering. If they just want somebody to drive a computer all day they can hire a tech for a lot less.

(Edit: not saying you don't know how to use the software - just exaggerating a little to make a point.)

 

[driftLimiter]

I took my time getting my PE. I was practicing during that time though and I just breezed through the test with maybe 20 hours of study. When I first got the PE I was like 'I'm good not going for SE'. Now after practicing for another few years with the PE, I want the SE because I love the field, and I get a satisfaction from applying the code and judgement etc. I didn't always think this way it has taken years of practice for me to really realize it.

I know some guys who went straight for the SE asap, they are the types who always know what they want and are seemingly effortlessly getting it all in life. For the rest of us, experience breeds perspective. I agree with some of what others have said here, the most practical approach is to continue gaining experience as a PE. Start learning the code, the modern state of practice. If you find yourself reading structure magazine articles, and digging deeply into the code and advanced techniques maybe that's a good time to assess whether you want to continue down structures path.

Pretty much the way I see it if you want to be a structural engineer then get your SE eventually because its like the 'top of your field' and other than the cost and the study time there is no real downside if you ask me. If you want to practice in any of the other avenues that are made available by the PE then just stick with that and don't waste your time and money getting a license you don't intend to use or at least leverage for better pay.

 

[ldeem]

I thought about getting SE at one time. I am a pretty good test taker and figured I could probably muddle through without a huge amount of studying.

What changed my mind is that when I looked in to IL (closest state requiring an SE) I don't have enough structural specific credit hours. I have BS Civil with structural concentration and I even took a few extra courses than the requirements at my college. I think one class would have got me to the IL requirements but I didn't feel like taking an online course college to get an SE.

 

[WARose]

I thought about getting SE at one time. I am a pretty good test taker and figured I could probably muddle through without a huge amount of studying.

Don't underestimate that test (if you do take it at some point). I remember when I passed the SE I, it was a 8% pass rate for repeat takers (which I was).

The pass rates are still fairly low:

https://ncees.org/engineering/pe-structural/

 

[Simba13]

Ideem I didn't realize you needed more than a BS to take the exam, that's a little weird...

WARose yeah. I've seen those stats, those lateral pass rates are rough...

 

[phamENG]

Simba - it's not that you need more than a BS to take the test. It's that Illinois has specific education requirements that go above and beyond most other states. In the course of getting your BS, you have to have a certain number of structural course credits. You can get a BS in CE without that many structural courses and still get a job in structural engineering and a PE in just about any other state. But Illinois is...special.