Washers per ASME PCC-1, Appendix M

[dozer]

I just asked a well known bolt supplier about washers that meet the subject spec. It came as little surprise to me that he had never heard of it. Seems to be the story of my life. These are through thickness hardened washers for use in bolting up pipe flanges. Yes, I've seen all of the threads about whether or not you should use washers on pipe flanges. This will be for stainless steel flanges with stainless bolts. Let's just assume that I'm going to use them.

Does anyone know of a bolt supplier that will know what I'm talking about? Also, how would you call it out on a RFQ? I was hoping I could call out the size and say per ASME PCC-1-2013, Appendix M, Type 5. If anyone has experience ordering these bad boys I would love to get your input.

 

[nickelkid]

I am not sure what code the piping is being construction to, but B31.3 defers to Section VIII div 2 requirements.

 

[dozer]

Yes, piping per B31.3, which states, "Flat washers typically should be 6 mm (1/4 in.) thick and made of through-hardened, wrought low alloy steel. See ASME PCC-1 for more information." So once again, we are referred back to ASME PCC-1.

 

[XL83NL]

To answer your question, here in NL we have at least one supplier, Hytorc, who sells PCC wassers.
Where are you from? What does VIII-2 have to do with these wassers?

 

[Krausen]

I've worked with a few different major oil & gas companies that require washers in all flange bolting applications. Owner specifications typically require the washers to be per ASME PCC-1. This is a vague requirement as I understand and I am not well-read in it. I've only specified washers for standard carbon steel flanges & low alloy bolting (A193 B7 studs / A194 2H nuts) to be flat plain steel washers per ASTM F436. As a structural, you may be familiar with this material spec. I have never worked with stainless bolting, so I'd have to read PCC-1 in detail to get a better understanding on this specific application.

 

[dozer]

I'm in the US, Houston area, but we do work all over the world. You'll have to ask nickelkid about Section VIII Div 2.

XL83NL, is the Hytorc you mention the one that sells the Hytorc Washer, the weird looking washer with a toothed edge? If so, I don't think they sale just plain 'ole flat washers.

One thing I noticed about PCC-1 is that it recommends a martensitic stainless steel washer for a austenitic stainless fastener (SA-193). Not sure I get this. Maybe you can make the martensitic steel harder. Just guessing, I'm not a metallurgist. Maybe I should start another thread for this question but does anyone know if that's OK to use for cryogenic applications?

 

[dozer]

I asked our usual fastener vendor about this. He gave his typical BS answer of stating what he could supply but not specifically saying that it would meet ASME PCC-1, Appendix M. Due to the his piss poor answer and the lack of feedback here, I'm starting to think these washers are made of unobtainium.

 

[jte]

Yeah, if the washers were fabricated of costalotalloy you would have gotten better vendor interest.

 

[bimr]

Portland Bolt or Oregon bolt should be able to answer your questions.

http://www.portlandbolt.com/technical/

http://www.oregonbolt.com/check-out-our-detailed-info-on--technical-data

Don't think SA-193 is suitable for cryogenic service.

http://www.fluidsealing.com/sealingsense/july10.pdf

Washers: The compatible washer for use with A320-L7 bolts is ASTM F436. Made from heat treated, hardened steel, F436 washers are capable of withstanding a broad range of environments including low temperature service.

http://www.portlandbolt.com/technical/faqs/astm-a320-grade-l7-nuts-and-washers/

http://www.portlandbolt.com/products/washers/hardened-round/

 

[rconner]

Was tickled by your quite picturesque description of the vendor response. I suspect you are right that martensitic washers are generally at least some harder (and higher strength) than e.g. common austenitic SS piping, and with hardening perhaps much harder and much higher yield strength. While I have no experience with same, I noticed the washers described at

http://www.thomasnet.com/productsea...enter-455-flange-bolting-disc-spring-washers/

and intended for some cryogenic service (these folks may also at least be source of info as well). I believe this material is likely a martensitic grade.

 

[dozer]

Bimr, as it happens Portland was the well known bolt supplier that I referred to in my OP. The guy that responded was not familiar with ASME PCC-1. He did say they have 400 series hardened washers. I don't think 400 series has enough nickel in it to be good for cryogenic service. You gotta be careful when people say something is good for low temperature service. Low temperature is not cryogenic.

Rconner, those are spring washers. I was looking for plain flat washers. I don't know, maybe I should consider them.

 

[bimr]

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=373310

 

[XL83NL]

Ive reviewed the Hytorc documentation. It does not specifically address that their through hardended washers comply with PCC-1. However, that could be easily verified by reviewing PCC-1 and comparing with the washer spec. Or a simple call.

Isn't it kinda the same as with buying an A312 TP316 pipe for use under B31.3? The pipe itself doesnt comply with B31.3, but can be used under B31.3.

 

[dozer]

Wow, these things must be made of gold not stainless. I've got two quotes for 1" ASME PCC-1 Type 6 Flat washers. One was $11.99 each, the other $9.88 each. This compares to about 75 cents for a garden variety 1" 304 SS flat washer. Now I see the real reason a lot of people don't use flat washers in bolted flanges. If anybody knows of a less expensive place, keep those cards and letters coming.

 

[rconner]

As we say down South, they are quite "Proud" of them (I'm guessing those washers are less than 2-1/2 oz each, or at say ten bucks each you may be paying about $67/lb or $135K/ton for same, not quite as high as gold - I'm going to assume you have seen the thread with referenced research etc. at least in more benign at least from the thermal perspective bolting applications at

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=373310

- while I am not experienced in no doubt difficult cryo applications, I would be curious if there is actual research on flat washers for the cryo application, e.g. looking at the relative significance of the washers vs e.g. assembly procedure/diligence and gasket/selection variations etc?) All have a good weekend.

 

[ricklts]

Most knowlegible person I know would be Tom Goin at US Bolt in Houston.

 

[Gator]

I recall that we used Solon washers in cold box service (big ASUs).

 

[rjh63]

Really interested to hear someone has been through the same pain as me trying to find PCC-1 annex M washers. Same deal - I have been looking to source type 4 and type 6 washers to that spec, and was very surprised at drawing a blank with all the usual suspects in terms of fastener suppliers. For the meantime the solution (!) we have in place is a supplier who is laser cutting the type 4 (low alloy) washers from sheet, and turning (!!) the type 6 (martensitic stainless) from bar. Prices are painful - it's costing more for washers than for the stud/nut set. I'm not giving up yet though - there must be some supplier out there who wants this business. It's encouraging at least to see I'm not alone.