Water Well Sub Motors 3

[d23]

All:

I am looking at a possible application that will require a "water well type" submergible motor. I know Franklin and Pleuger are out there. There must be others. I'm looking for med voltage, 500+ HP. I need reliability. Any ideas or suggestions of who to check or who to avoid I would appreciate.

Thanks

 

[PUMPDESIGNER]

Market is very dynamic, or absolutely dead - depending on how you look at it.
Franklin has attempted to buy out just about everyone.
They recently got in trouble and paid a million dollar fine to the SEC for some shenaigans on a buy out.
They recently bought out an Italian manufacturer of subs.
Scarry bunch of guys.

GE recently bought the entire production of an Asian company who makes pretty good motors. Forgot the name but might have been TECO or something. Try GE to see if those motors are available through them.

Toshiba makes a submersible with a great reputation but they cannot compete on price with Franklin so they do not try, therefore few people have access to the Toshiba units.

Franklin seems to have good quality control for 6" and 8" motors. I know nothing of their larger motors. We have not had a single failure on a Franklin motor in 15 years.

Are you or your company still responsible for the motor if you are being asked to use something else? I suppose however that you are the kind of person that still cares about the customer's welfare even though they are looking for less expensive.
PUMPDESIGNER

 

[Kawartha]

d23,

There are other possibilities, but they are not as active in North America as Pleuger and Franklin. Therefore backup service may be suspect.

You didn't advise 2 or 4-pole motors, and of course medium voltage - 2300 or 4000 volt. This will effect availability also.

I don't believe Franklin goes this large, unless they have significantly increased their product range in the last 10 years. If you require 4-pole, this is even less likely at Franklin. Franklin did make some small 4-pole motors for use on research submarines. But these were very small units.

Other possibilities:
KSB - although probably higher price than Pleuger, they are good quality. Should be able to cover the complete range of voltage and rpm.
Hitachi - Check with Sun Star in Texas. Should be competitive.
Hayward-Tyler - British manufacturer. Probably expensive but should be able to offer voltage and rpm.
EMU - German manufacturer. You'll have to check to see if they can handle this size, but they are fairly big in submersibles.
BJ - I guess this is FLOWSERVE now. Probably on the expensive side, but worth checking.

I'm sure that you can find details on each of the above on the net.

These are some potentials. If I think of any others I'll let you know.

Good luck.

Richard

 

[PUMPDESIGNER]

Gee Kawartha, how many different subm companies have you investigated? That is a lot of companies you got hold of.
I am going to contact every one of them to check them out. PUMPDESIGNER

 

[d23]

PUMPDESIGNER, Kawartha, All:

First
Thank you for not doing any manufactures bashing. I didn't word this post very well, but I would prefer to hear "good" and forget the rest.

Kawartha:

It is a two pole motor. I or we have not decided on voltage yet. The power system is not installed. It may seem a little strange, but I want to determine availability before worrying about a transformer or cable size.

Being a manufacture (wrong side of the desk) I understand and can accept a failure. The problem is finding a manufacture that can deliver quickly and will accept responsibility if it's theirs.

Any time I hear about water well equipment KSB seems to be referred to as the quality guy's as you indicated. Bet before the week is over they will be getting a request for information and pricing. There will be one or two others too...

PUMPDESIGNER:
I never thought about TOSHIBA. I will be talking to them too!

Thanks for the help!!!

 

[BobPE]

d23:

you are right, KSB is very well though of in the industry. Not only is their equipment what they say it is, you can actually talk to engineers when you call them to talk about their equipment. Plus, it doesnt take 26 weeks to get repair parts like some unnamed companies!
BobPE

 

[Kawartha]

d23,

Just one other thing to think about when you're looking for the motors. Advise those you ask to quote whether this will be a vertical or horizontal installation. If you are looking at horizontal installation, the manufacturer may have to go to a larger diameter motor (shorter rotor length) which would result in higher cost. Don't get stung with this problem after you have received an order, get it on the table when you ask for quotes. The price difference could blow your potential profit and more.

The reason for this is that the larger diameter rotor/stator packs more HP / axial dimension. Therefore, for 500 hp, a 14" motor may be 5' long, whereas a 16" motor might be 4' long. These #'s are for example only and not specific to any manufacturer. When installed horizontally, the long rotor length will bend (bearing supports are too wide), and contact the stator, which causes rapid motor failure.

PUMPDESIGER,

I'm sure I could ask you any question about the skid mounted pump station business, and you would have the answer at your finger tips. As you know, when you run a business it's necessary to know not only your own products but all (at least we try) of the competition.

 

[d23]

Kawartha:

You make an excellent point about OD's. One of the very few things I can actually handle is casing size, velocities and drilling cost. "Yea old oil field dun learned me dis!!!" I do have some very limited casing sizes to work with on this one.

About the big "Q" (quality) word. Any of my customers will tell you that if it is me there are never any questions or negotiations required when dealing with warranties. If it is me (us) we take care of it. If not I will personally explain and give them the dismantle results (failed parts) from the actual problem so everyone understands both the problem and fix. My customers have found that my competitors can't always make this claim (customer’s words.) The reason for this post is to find a quality manufacture that offers this same business philosophy. Human error is a fact of life. How these problems are dealt with is the big question. Quality does have a price, but I have found that the big "Q" price is less than the "HIGH QUANTITY" price in the long term. I have enough gray hair.

OK; I'll get off my soap box!

Thank you for identifying a supplier that has quality, availability and flexibility!!

 

[smckennz]

Talk to Flygt.

Cheers

Steve

 

[rcrum]

d23,
Two good possibilities for what you're looking for is : REDDA and Centrilift. Both located in Tulsa Oklahoma, I believe. These companies specialize in 3500 RPM deep well pumps. Although most of their work is in the oilfield business, both have done some work in water wells. I can't give you a recommendation as I have no personal experience with either.
Flygt is not a manufacturer of "down hole" pumps or motors.

RCrum

 

[BobPE]

rcrum:

Thank God Flygt does not make down hole pumps!!!! That is one part of the business their crappy pumps have not made it too!!!! But, ITT-Dresser-Flowserve-Worthington-Goulds or what ever they call themselves now, owns Flygt....so smekennz aint all the way wrong, just a little misguided!!!!...LOL

BobPE

 

[piffer]

BobPE:
I wonder what Flygt did to you or are you just anti-manufacturer across-the-board...You certainly don't know who owns who...
Piffer

 

[BobPE]

what am I missing piffer, I certainly do know who owns who, did I get an ownership wrong?

My problem with flygt is that they were a great pump company back in the day. They are just a burned out wreck on the side of the road now...If you worked with them for any period of time, I would think you would know this too...

BobPE

 

[piffer]

BobPE:
Goulds and Flygt are part of ITT Industries, Fluid Technology Division. I don't know about FloServe, Worthington, or Dresser(?). The "wreck on the side of the road" is alive and doing quite well (15 years and counting for me).
Piffer

 

[BobPE]

ooops piffer....sorry...I just had problems with Flygt pumps and mixers, mostly the flygt motors. I wont go into it here since its not fair I guess without going into all the details. I don't think the ITT part of Flygt was a good thing, I thought they were better before.

BobPE

 

[Kawartha]

piffer is correct. ITT owns Goulds and Flygt.

FLOWSERVE is based on the old Dresser Group which included Worthington, Pleuger, Sier-Bath, Pacific, etc. Dresser then merged (or bought out), Duriron which I think already had purchased BJ some time prior to the merger. It also owns a slew of other miscellaneous pumps and miscellaneaous products (ex. Durametallic mechanical seals).

I sympathize with you BobPE, because none of these suppliers provide composite pump catalogs any more, so its hard to keep them in perspective. They will of course provide a CD with their product information, but I find I can locate info in the old catalogs in a quarter of the time that it takes to load a CD and locate the information that I want.

piffer is also right about Flygt. I believe they are still the #1 submersible waste water pump in North America. However, I agree with BobPE, it is not because of the technical strength of their product line. It is more because of their excellent service back-up. Municipal customers require a significant comfort zone regarding maintenance back-up. If a Flygt pump fails, the service rep is available as required 7/24. Because of their experience with Flygt, they beleive that submersible sewage pumps fail frequently, and therefore service is a critical part of their buying decision.

 

[d23]

rcrum:

FYI:
REDA (now Schlumberger) is in Bartlesville Ok., Centrilift is in Clairmore Ok. both within 60 miles or so of Tulsa as you stated.

BOBPE, Piffer:

Sorry guys I didn't mean to start the wrong things here. To quote Mr. BOBPE "its a jungle in here."

Thanks to all for the good information!