Weather Data for EPA SWMM5 1

[RWF7437]

Experienced SWMM users, please help.

The User's Manual for EPA SWMM5 says that rainfall and other weather data is available on line from

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov

in a file format called " DSI 3240". I have tried for three days now to find and download such data but with no luck at all. The ncdc site is very cluttered and difficult to navigate. It seems to run around in circles and dump you back where you began. It does not appear to provide a preview of the type if data that is available. Nor, does it provide clear instructions for downloading the data, if you can find it, or for how to pay for the data.

Add to these problems the fact that the site for which I need the data may be as much as 30 miles from the nearest airport/weather station. I need both short term ( i.e. storm data)and long term data for continuous simulation using EPA SWMM5.

Anyone who has experienced these problems and found a way around them is asked ( begged !) to offer advice, suggestions or alternatives.

 

[tsgrue]

.

Try TD3240. I think the DSI3240 is "the same thing", but refers to the tape data storage system. The 3240 data is hourly precipitation. If you want/need that resolution, I suggest downloading and using WDMutil, which is probably easiest through the BASINS HHWQ software system: “

http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/basins/”.

You can then download and utilize state-by-state files of hourly weather data (

http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/basins/b3webdwn.htm).

For 15-minute precipitation data, you might want to try the TD3260 data product from the National Weather Service (available through the NCDC and commercial vendors).

Note that: “The National Climatic Data Center (NCDC) provides climatological/meteorological data at not charge to academic, government, and research institutions. This data has to be accessed online through ".gov", ".edu", ".k12", and ".mil" domains.” So, you could go through your local public, college, or university library - among other avenues - to obtain this data without charge.

.



tsgrue: site engineering, stormwater
management, landscape design, ecosystem
rehabilitation, mathematical simulation

http://hhwq.blogspot.com

 

[RWF7437]

Thanks Tsgrue,

I've tried a couple of your suggestions but, so far, no luck. I downloaded the file ORwdm.zip (Oregon data); unzipped it but it only led to a text file and a file with a .wdm file extension. Apparently this .wdm file can be recognized by Basins4 but NOT by EPA SWMM5 (?). I have Basins4 but I'm just learning to use it so I'd prefer to use that instead.

This is all very ( and needlessly) obscure. How about publishing this data in simpler format ? Text files, comma separated values or tab delimited data files are almost universal. ( I know you're not responsible for this; just asking rhetorically ).

Thanks anyway. I'll keep trying your other ideas.

 

[RWF7437]

Tsgrue,

Finally was able to download and install something called "Gen_Scn_WDMUtil" from the site BASINS HHWQ. When I try to run this executable program I get obscure error messages about the program not supporting animation, or something. Maybe this program is only an add-in to Basins (? ) but whatever it is it doesn't get me any farther with EPA SWMM. All this only seems to add problems on top of problems.

 

[tsgrue]

.

When you download and install BASINS (ver 3.x or 4.x), you also automatically install a data software utility application known as "WDMutil". This allows you to view, plot, and manipulate WDM data files. (WDM is one of several standard "federal" hydrometeorological data formats, such as DSS, GRiB, HDF, and others.) WDMutil also allows you to export “text file” data for use in SWMM5. Another reason to use WDMutil and BASINS is that one of the improvements to BASINS 4.x that will be undertaken in FY08 will be inclusion of an interface for SWMM5 through MapWindow. You can access WDMutil directly after installing BASINS through the MS Windows “Start Menu” and at “C:\Basins\models\HSPF\WDMUtil\WDMUtil.exe” (or whatever path to which it was installed). Please post again if that doesn't work (or isn't very clear - of which I wouldn't be surprised).

I work with (manipulate) input data formats a fair amount, so I'll try thinking of some other utilities for this. Once you do this once or twice and set up your base input data files, you usually don't have to mess with it much after that unless your projects are in very different climatological areas or you do a lot of existing system model calibration.

.


tsgrue: site engineering, stormwater
management, landscape design, ecosystem
rehabilitation, mathematical simulation

http://hhwq.blogspot.com

 

[tsgrue]

.

Also, if there is a particular location for which you need - let me know and I'll send you the 3240/3260 data (if it is available for that location). That might help as you get comfortable with the system? Getting used to the data acquisition is probably the most obscure/nonstraightfoward aspect of using SWMM5, but - as noted above - it's sort of a "few times getting started process".

.


tsgrue: site engineering, stormwater
management, landscape design, ecosystem
rehabilitation, mathematical simulation

http://hhwq.blogspot.com

 

[RWF7437]

Continued wailing and gnashing of teeth !

Thanks Tsgrue. Running the program directly from the start menu gave me this error message:
" runtime error 430
"class does not support Automation or does not support expected interface"

Now that's a really helpful piece of information....whateverthehell it means.

It sounds like one of Microsoft's ideas of helpful.

So still no luck.

I'm trying to get rainfall data for both Salem, Oregon and Lincoln City, Oregon at the moment. If I ever figure this thing out I may also need other areas in Oregon, Washington and California.

Thanks again.

 

[tsgrue]

.

It sounds like you've got a bad BASINS install or an operating system conflict/problem. From a MS Windows system maintenance point-of-view, I suggest downloading, installing, and running the following software applications (all free, all safe):

CCleaner (latest version) -

http://www.ccleaner.com

EasyCleaner 2.0 (last free version) -

http://www.majorgeeks.com/download414.html

Spybot (latest version) -

http://www.safer-networking.org

I'd uninstall BASINS, run each of the software applications above twice, and then reinstall BASINS. Also, BASINS doesn't like to be installed anywhere but the “C” drive and it wants the “C” drive to be the root directory, which is the case on 99.0%+ of MS Windows OS installations.

I'll check into the locations you noted.

.


tsgrue: site engineering, stormwater
management, landscape design, ecosystem
rehabilitation, mathematical simulation

http://hhwq.blogspot.com

 

[tsgrue]

.

The BASINS WDM Oregon file contains hourly meteorological data for the following stations:

ALLEGANY
ASTORIA WSO AIRPORT
BEULAH
EUGENE WSO AIRPORT
LA GRANDE
MEDFORD WSO AIRPORT
OCHOCO DAM
PENDLETON ESO AIRPORT
PORTLAND INTL AIRPORT
SALEM WSO AIRPORT

The records extend from 1970 Jan 01 to 1996 Dec 31. Below is a link to the data for “SALEM WSO AIRPORT”.

Also, SWMM can utilize smaller precipitation files by removing the non-rainfall periods in-between events. SWMM assumes the last value for each computation period unless another value is given (so the last value for a given storm should always be zero to indicate rainfall has ceased). from SWMM help file; “When preparing rainfall time series files, it is only necessary to enter periods with non-zero rainfall amounts. SWMM interprets the rainfall value as a constant value lasting over the recording interval specified for the rain gage which utilizes the time series. For all other types of time series, SWMM uses interpolation to estimate values at times that fall in between the recorded values.” In other words, any two sequential records of zero rainfall are unnecessary and just take up extra file space.

I prepared the Salem OR hourly precipitation data file as follows:

Started WDMutil
Opened “or.wdm” in WDMutil
Cleared time-series list (click button or use )
Added Salem precipitation data by highlighting OBSERVED (Scenarios), OR007500 (Locations), and PREC (Constituents) and then clicking “add to time series list” (could have used drop-down menu)
Opened precipitation data by highlighting time series and clicking on “list/edit time series” - button with “1 1 1” above “2 2 2” (could have used drop-down menu)
Set date format to MM/DD/YYYY (through “Edit” and “Date Format” menus)
Set number format to 2 decimal places (through “Edit” and “Number Format” menus)
Exported space separated data file (through “File” and “Save to Text File” - make sure to use tabs or spaces and don't include column titles)

You can import this file directly into SWMM for use, but that is 236,688 records (27 years of hourly data). That will use a a fair amount of memory, create a file size much larger than is needed, and slow down SWMM because of this. A file prepared with respect to the sequential no rainfall periods will be much better.

Note that some of the BASINS WDM files have data gaps. You may want to exclude these or insert data from a nearby station for the missing records.

What station is closest to Lincoln?

.


tsgrue: site engineering, stormwater
management, landscape design, ecosystem
rehabilitation, mathematical simulation

http://hhwq.blogspot.com

 

[RWF7437]

Thanks again.

I got the .zip file you provided a link to but have not yet opened it.

Still trying to uninstall Basins but neither Windows or MyUninstaller can find it so no luck yet on that option.

Lincoln City is on the Oregon coast at 45° N, 124° W. There are, allegedly, weather stations at the Newport OR airport, and at a small place called Neotsu and at a small town called Otis, OR. Otis is for sale, of you're interested. Ir has 35 buildings, some actually occupied. I'll get you a price if you need a town.

I appreciate all your help but I'm sorry to say that I regret even trying to learn SWMM, HSPF, and Basins. I know , from your other posts on these fora, that they're some of your favorites but they seem like gold plated shovels with rope handles to me.

Russ

 

[tsgrue]

.

Well, it seems the precipitation input file is the issue at this point. Below is a link to a "base" SWMM model. The file represents the following scenario:

parking lot --> wooded buffer strip --> detention pond --> trapezoidal channel

Parking lot is 300ft X 208ft
Wooded buffer strip is 300ft X 20ft
Detention pond is 85ft X 50ft X 2ft w/4:1 sideslopes
Trapezoidal channel is 6ft wide w/4:1 sideslopes and vegetation

The detention pond has a weir overflow outlet and is dewatered with a small pipe outlet.

The precipitation input is a NRCS Type IA 25y 24h event. This is a depth of 6.5 inches at Lincoln City Oregon.

I also attached a spreadsheet for SCS precipitation data preparation. This is from a StormNet download I tried out. Also, the StormNet has a pretty good manual. Since StormNet is SWMM5 with almost no difference, you can download it and use it for reference.

.


tsgrue: site engineering, stormwater
management, landscape design, ecosystem
rehabilitation, mathematical simulation

http://hhwq.blogspot.com

 

[RWF7437]

Thanks again Tsgrue. You have done far more than I could reasonably expect.

The spreadsheet will be useful, although the storm usually used in Oregon is Type IA, not Type II. But I already have, or can generate, the dimensionless rainfall pattern for a type IA storm of any frequency or duration using either SMADA, Hydraflow Hydrographs or HydroCad. Indeed, I also have other rainfall patterns for some local historical actual storms and for some historical storms used in Riverside County, California.

I do not yet have Stormnet but will download it and try it out. It couldn't be any mukrier than SWMM, could it ?

As for rainfall data; it appears there is an error at NCDC, perhaps. I don't know of any town on Oregon called Allegany. Could they mean Albany perhaps ?

I'll keep working on this but won't post any more questions until I understand some of these things better.

 

[RWF7437]

Seems Slo

http://wwwwwww

and EXPEN$IVE but just might have the data needed for a continuous simulation model.

 

[RWF7437]

http://weather-warehouse.com/index.html

 

[tsgrue]

.

StormNET is basically SWMM5. There is very little difference and - in my opinion - no reason to purchase this instead of using SWMM5. In essencse, it appears that BOSS took the free/open-source SWMM5 source code, changed the GUI a bit, added about 3 or 4 minor features, compiled it for MSWindows, and market the software as a completly different application.

Which software application is "Slo

http://wwwwwww

and EXPEN$IVE"?

.


tsgrue: site engineering, stormwater
management, landscape design, ecosystem
rehabilitation, mathematical simulation

http://hhwq.blogspot.com

 

[tsgrue]

.

The following are meteorological data sites that might be useful to you...

NOAA Climate Prediction Center Hourly US Precipitation
1948/01 - 2002/12

http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/cdc/data.cpc_hour.html

Hydrosphere Data Products
Streamflow Data, Meteorological Data, and Water Quality Data

http://www.hydrosphere.com/hdp/index.htm

EarthInfo

http://www.earthinfo.com/index.htm

NRCS National Water and Climate Center
Climate Information Retrieval for Oregon

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/cgibin/state.pl?state=or

Oregon Climate Service

http://www.ocs.oregonstate.edu/index.html

Citizen Weather Observer Program

http://www.wxqa.com

National Climatic Data Center

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/ncdc.html

.



tsgrue: site engineering, stormwater
management, landscape design, ecosystem
rehabilitation, mathematical simulation

http://hhwq.blogspot.com

 

[RWF7437]

Also,

http://www.earthinfo.com/index.htm

 

[onyeuko]

I do not understand why you are going through all these rough paths. Do you want to reinvent the wheels?(no offence meant). Down load stormnet, go through the manual and you will find the lead to the sites that will give you all the informations that you needed to complete that assignment(rainfall and other weather data for any part of USA). If this does not help, then you have to rewrite the books.(only joking)
Teddy

 

[RWF7437]

onyeuko,

"Do you want to reinvent the wheels?"

Well, yes. Sometimes one is handed a square wheel, or a wheel that is too small, or a wheel that is too big. EPA SWMM seems to be all of these things so I'm trying to "round" it into something I can actually use, or find an alternative.

Some wheels, like Stormnet, are too expensive and time consuming for smaller projects. Also, it has flat spots. For example, from what little I've seen of it, it does not appear to be able to model storms or any duration greater than 24 hours. Because the rain in my part of the World (Oregon) does not behave well and refuses to stop when the clock says "midnight", I often want to model storms of longer duration.

" Down load stormnet, go through the manual and you will find the lead to the sites that will give you all the informations that you needed to complete that assignment(rainfall and other weather data for any part of USA)."

I have downloaded Stormnet ( the free version)and I'm trying to learn to use it. The Manual is about 385 pages and costs a couple hundred dollars. Buying it and the program would cost over $1,200. Unless and until I know the program will do everything I need to do I'm unwilling to invest my time and money in it. I've already discovered some limitations of the program but haven't used it long enough to know if it has bugs or other ideosynchrosies. I have not yet been able to download real world weather data for my locality to test the continuous simulation capabilities of the program. In the mountainous west rainfall patterns can vary markedly within a distance if a few miles. County level resolution is often NOT fine enough to provide meaningful data for a particular project. My current project is 30 miles from the nearest recording weather station; over hill and dale.

Because I work for myself, no one has assigned me this task. I've assigned it to myself; in anticipation of needing it for a project for a client who has not yet hired me or authorized me to spend time and money ( his money). I've also assigned it to me as part of my continuing education ( I'm in the 70th year of that education).

" If this does not help, then you have to rewrite the books.(only joking)"

I love books and have great respect for them. I also know how they are written and have written a few. But I never believe, or disbelieve, anything just because it is written in a book. Some books, especially some Rule Books, need to be rewritten.

If you are an experienced Stormnet user and know some ways around what I have perceived to be some of its limitations I'd appreciate your suggestions.

Thanks for the suggestions already offered.

Russ

 

[RWF7437]

onyeuko,
Suggested reading:

https://www.forester.net/sw_0607_voodoo.html