Weatherford Acquires ClearWell Technology 1

[bimr]

*****Scale Treatment*****......**News Flash**

Weatherford Intl. Inc. has introduced its ClearWELL electronic scale-treatment system (Fig. 1)........ The device is attached to the casing or wellhead with a ferrite clamp and emits a 120-kHz signal. ....

http://www.spe.org/spe/jpt/jsp/jptmonthlysection/0,2440,1104_1585_6776890_6777212,00.html

Now, carefully review the picture of the Hydropath unit:

http://www.hydroflow.force9.co.uk/images/aquaklear.jpg

http://www.hydroflow.force9.co.uk/

After comparing the pictures, does anyone on this forum think that the "ClearWell" device is anything but a rebadged Hydropath/Hydroflow electronic scale buster? Check out the pictures.

Looks like the same bolts, fitting, and cheap strap to me.

"To achieve this flow of electrons in the plumbing system a voltage must be generated in the water in the direction of the pipe."

Does anyone think this is worthy of Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman?

 

[bimr]

If you daytime gig as a rocket scientist does not work out, you might try you hand as a copy writer for a manufacturer of one of the quack devices. Like the manufacturers of these devices, you appear to have the ability to name drop a simple concept such as Faradays law and then to extrapolate the concept into all sorts of fanciful notions.

Conductivity of a substance is defined as 'the ability or power to conduct or transmit heat, electricity, or sound'. Its units are Siemens per meter [S/m] in SI and micromhos per centimeter [mmho/cm] in U.S. customary units.

In water and ionic materials or fluids a net motion of charged ions can occur. This phenomenon produce an electric current and is called ionic conduction.

Pure water is not a good conductor of electricity. Ordinary distilled water in equilibrium with carbon dioxide of the air has a conductivity of about 10 x 10-6 W-1*m-1 (20 dS/m). Because the electrical current is transported by the ions in solution, the conductivity increases as the concentration of ions increases. Thus conductivity increases as water dissolved ionic species.

http://www.lenntech.com/water-conductivity.htm

However, if the voltage is high enough electrons will bridge the gap, even in a vacuum. Think of lightning through air.

http://scienceathome.cienciaviva.pt/conduti_agua_eng.html

So how does one explain the application of these magnetic devices in all waters and applications without accounting for the conductivity of the water.

 

[H20Girl]

Hi bimr,
No need to get "testy". (a little pun here)

I missed you <sic> point somewhere.

you might try you hand as a copy writer

I thought we were "debunking" this technology because the basic principles of physics do not allow for a signal (standing sine wave) to be induced on a fluid column?

Do you believe it is possible to induce a signal on a typical fluid column? (such as the water we find in most facilities).

A simple yes/no answer will do. (however this is not what we will probably get)

H20Girl

 

[bimr]

Yes, it is possible. For instance, magnetic flowmeters measure flow via magnetic coils powered by either alternating current (AC) or direct current (DC). When the current powers the coils, a magnetic field is created in the area of the flowing liquid. When conductive liquid flows through a magnetic field, a voltage is generated that is directly proportional to the velocity of the fluid. The magmeter detects this voltage using electrodes that are typically positioned on either side of the pipe and computes flow velocity based on the amount of voltage present.

Have you ever heard one of the manufacturers of magmeter flowmeter claim that the magmeters change the properties of the water? No, not really.

While many substances undergo alignment of the atomic-level fields in response to an applied magnetic field, only ferromagnetic materials retain the atomic-level alignment when the applied field is removed.

Whether or not some magnetic water treatment effect actually exists is the further question and the answer is no.

 

[H20Girl]

Better tell Weatherford before they waste any more money!

H2OGirl

 

[H20Girl]

I'm going to say this, and then be done with it. (cheers everyone!)

After looking at the website posted by bimr above:

"Fig.1 shows a sign wave of 200 KHz....."

http://www.hydroflow.force9.co.uk/theory.htm

Once we get past the typo, I can not see why the base theory of operation (as far as inducing the signal into the fluid column) could not be done in this way. This is why I can't agree with the chem1 site "debunking" in this case.

This also seems to be a KEY difference to ANY other PWT devices I've researched. I simply don't see how a typical coil device could do this. (that is to induce a significant signal into the fluid column.) Of course, a magnet could not possibly do this.

I also can't see why dissolved particles (ions & cations) could not be manipulated by applying a linear voltage along a fluid column. This doesn't seem to violate physics to me. Does it work to reduce scaling? I don't know, but I guess Weatherford thinks so.

Has this company found the secret to successful PWT? I don't know, but I can say it appears to be very different from the other technologies that I know of. Perhaps Weatherford agrees with this as well.

H2OGirl

 

[LHA]

Once we get past the in-depth discussions of Faraday's Law and sub-particle alignment and lots of other things that don't really matter, we can start offering examples of satisfied customers. Until then...

I do have a gadget on my 2" PVC Domestic service, and it claims to be some magical electromagnet, and it cost a lot, and it doesn't appear to be doing anything.

Please, fellow 'Tipsters, don't buy an magical electromagnet. Thank you.

Signature under construction, sorry about the mess - Steve

 

[bimr]

There are many reasons why the hydroflow theory of operation as presented by hydropath/hydroflow is completely bogus and will not work:

http://www.hydroflow.force9.co.uk/theory.htm

1. It is impossible to generate the sinusoidal wave that is shown on hydropath/hydroflow theory page using a transformer.

The only way to generate such a perfect sinusoidal curve is to use mechanical force to turn an electrical motor backwards.

If you generate such a sinusoidal curve using a switch mode device (using switching capacitors for example), the curve will not be a perfect sinusoidal curve as shown by hydropath/hydroflow.

2. If you assumed for the sake of argument that the hydropath/hydroflow device would work, whatever effect the device would have would stop completely when the water stops flowing or a valve is closed.

3. It is impossible to achieve a constant "standing wave" voltage across any plumbing system since the voltage obviously will vary with the distance away from the device. So even if the device could be made to function, whatever effect the device had would be muted the farther away that you went from the device.

4. Electromagnetic flow meters utilize Faraday's law for conductive fluids to measure flow. Faraday's law says that when a conductive liquid moves in a pipe with a velocity through a magnetic field, it will induce a voltage. E = BvDC where E is voltage, v is average velocity, B is intensity of magnetic field, D is the length of conductor, and C is a constant depending on dimensional units.

Faraday’s law is the basis of theory for the development of magmeter technology.

On the contrary, hydropath/hydroflow 's theory states that when a conductive liquid moves in a pipe with a velocity through a magnetic field, the hydropath/hydroflow device will generate a voltage.

5. A high frequency transformer will also not generate a sinusoidal curve. Frequencies are usually between 20 and 100kHz:

http://schmidt-walter.fbe.fh-darmstadt.de/smps_e/trafo_hilfe_e.html#d-HFT

In summary, these devices are without a doubt, completely bogus. There is not a single controlled study showing positive results.

 

[H20Girl]

Well, now I'm even more currious regarding this technology.

It's funny how two people can read the same material and get two completely different things from it:

It is impossible to generate the sinusoidal wave that is shown on hydropath/hydroflow theory page using a transformer. The only way to generate such a perfect sinusoidal curve is to use mechanical force to turn an electrical motor backwards. If you generate such a sinusoidal curve using a switch mode device (using switching capacitors for example), the curve will not be a perfect sinusoidal curve as shown by hydropath/hydroflow.

The signal that is fed to the primary coil is a high frequency diminishing wave with random wait periods.

This would not indicate that they claim a "perfect sinusoidal curve". My understanding is that the signal generated is described by the little blue "squiggly" in the diagram.

If you assumed for the sake of argument that the hydropath/hydroflow device would work, whatever effect the device would have would stop completely when the water stops flowing or a valve is closed.

Why? This does not make sense to me. It seems to me that the electrical current would continue to flow regardless of whether the water is flowing. Conductive valves would not seem to stop the flow of electrons either(?) I agree that non-conductive valves would seem to be an issue.

It is impossible to achieve a constant "standing wave" voltage across any plumbing system since the voltage obviously will vary with the distance away from the device. So even if the device could be made to function, whatever effect the device had would be muted the farther away that you went from the device.

If the source is 10V then the standing wave voltage will be [sin((60/375)*90)]*10 = 2.49V between one end of the plumbing system and the other.

This would indicate to me that they don't claim a "constant standing wave", and acknoledge that the voltage decreases with distance from the unit. The example used a system of 60m. They indicate 10v at source, and 2.49v at 60m in the example.

hydropath/hydroflow 's theory states that when a conductive liquid moves in a pipe with a velocity through a magnetic field, the hydropath/hydroflow device will generate a voltage.

I didn't see this anywhere.

It is this acceleration that forms the electromagnetic field. The electric component is responsible for the generation of nuclear clusters that act as seed crystals to prevent the formation of encrusting scale.

I read this as saying the Hydropath unit creates a voltage potential(and current), and that magnetic flux is created as a result of the CURRENT, not the other way around as described by bimr(?) I think we are familiar with this effect, and use the "right hand law" in common practice.

In summary, it should not be difficult to test one of these units to see if they at least generate the wave form described. Surely Weatherford would have tested this!(?)

H2OGirl

 

[MikeHalloran]

>>Surely Weatherford would have tested this!(?)<<

Not in evidence.

Companies buy technologies for a lot of reasons, not all of them technical. Often, the people who are authorized to spend the money are not capable of evaluating the technical merits of anything proposed. Too often, they are also too proud to ask for help, even from persons already in their employ. Or they may respond to that old sales pitch of "buy it now or lose the opportunity".

Example: My friend President Junior gave me an item to evaluate and report on. I tested it, and said it was a "neat hack", mostly worked as advertised, but that I probably wouldn't buy it. He replied that he already bought it. The company that made it, that is. I refrained from making most of the obvious comments that sprang to mind. Later I spoke with some people at the purchased company. They were expecting a cash infusion after the sale; it never came. To this day I don't know what Junior had in mind; with enhancements, the product could have been more useful to us as an OEM and to the nominal consumer population too. Didn't happen.

I'm pretty sure that companies are also bought and starved like that solely to keep one or more of the principals from competing with the buyer. Sadly, no one ever perceived me as that much of a threat.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[bimr]

Watergirl,

You have misread the hydropath/hydroflow blurb:

Watergirl says "This would not indicate that they claim a "perfect sinusoidal curve". My understanding is that the signal generated is described by the little blue "squiggly" in the diagram."

bimr says:

Here is the quote from hydropath/hydroflow theory page:

"To generate a reasonable flow of electrons in an open circuit conductor, it is necessary to provide a source of high frequency to a conductor that is long enough to generate a standing wave voltage over its length. Fig.1 shows a sign wave of 200 KHz. The wave length is 1500m, the 1/4 wave length is 375m."

The "the little blue "squiggly" in the diagram." that you are referencing is supposed to be the power supply for the transformer.

The blurb states "The signal that is fed to the primary coil(transformer <sic>) is a high frequency diminishing wave with random wait periods."

Look at the "standing waves" generated by high frequency transformers:

http://schmidt-walter.fbe.fh-darmstadt.de/smps_e/trafo_hilfe_e.html#uotp

What hydropath/hydroflow is saying is impossible.

Hard to believe that you are debating that a device that uses only 8 watts of energy is going to do anything. The lights on the device are probably going to use most of the 8 watts up.

C100 90-260VAC/24VDC 30mA 8.05 watts


I mistakenly left out the word "not" above:
4. Electromagnetic flow meters utilize Faraday's law for conductive fluids to measure flow. Faraday's law says that when a conductive liquid moves in a pipe with a velocity through a magnetic field, it will induce a voltage. E = BvDC where E is voltage, v is average velocity, B is intensity of magnetic field, D is the length of conductor, and C is a constant depending on dimensional units.

Faraday’s law is the basis of theory for the development of magmeter technology.

On the contrary, hydropath/hydroflow 's theory states that when a conductive liquid moves in a pipe with a velocity through a magnetic field, the hydropath/hydroflow device will "not" generate a voltage.

In summary, these devices are without a doubt, completely bogus. There is not a single controlled study showing positive results.

 

[bimr]

hydropath/hydroflow nonsense:

"To generate a reasonable flow of electrons in an open circuit conductor, it is necessary to provide a source of high frequency to a conductor that is long enough to generate a standing wave voltage over its length."

bimr says:

The wavelength is determined easily by calculation since wavelength=speed of light / frequency. The wavelength has nothing to do with "it is necessary to provide a source of high frequency to a conductor that is long enough to generate a standing wave voltage over its length."


Electromagnetic waves travel at the speed of light (29,979,245,800 centimeters per second) and their frequency and wavelength can be determined by the formulas:

L = c /f = 29,979,245,800 / 200 KHz. = 1500 meters

http://www.1728.com/freqwave.htm

 

[bimr]

hydropath/hydroflow nonsense:

"Fig.2 represents the position at T1 on Fig.1 and Fig. 3 represent the position at T2 on Fig.1. To achieve this flow of electrons in the plumbing system a voltage must be generated in the water in the direction of the pipe."

"This voltage difference between the extremities of the plumbing system is caused by a substantial flow of electrons from one end to the other of the system."

http://www.hydroflow.force9.co.uk/theory.htm

watergirl,

Would you be kind enough to explain how you can have electrons flowing in one direction in a pipe, as shown in Figure? It would appear that the electrons would normally flow in all directions away from the power source.

Is the trick that you must use AC or DC rated pipes?

 

[H20Girl]

Hi bimr,

I was getting tired of debating the "theory" surrounding this, so I decided to contact one of the USA distributors of this technology (not ClearWELL, but a USA Hydropath distributor). I explained that I was interested in testing a unit to determine if it in fact generates the waveform indicated on the Hydropath (and their) website. The reaction I got was a laugh, which was followed by "we get quite a bit of that lately". It seems that many "leaders in the field of physics" have the same opinion as bimr regarding this, and the subject has become quite popular.

After speaking more with them, and for the sake of "science", I agreed to purchase a unit if they would refund my money should I determine that the unit does not create the waveform as specified. They agreed, so I expect to receive the test unit shortly. (a small "HS-38" unit)

I should say that my testing the unit will have nothing to do with whether it works to control scale or not. My water has a TDS of 75ppm, so I don't have any scaling issues to test against.

I will document my findings and report them here, and on the Water Treatment:New & Alternatives Forum, regardless of my findings.

All "theory" aside, I will get to the bottom of this debate.

H2OGirl

 

[bimr]

That's a great idea Watergirl,

I am not sure how much energy it takes to produce such a "standing wave", but it will be interesting to see.

From the hydropath/hydroflow website, it says that the energy usage for the HS-38 unit is:

"12 VAC. 100mA.
Max power 1.2 watts"

http://www.hydroflow.force9.co.uk/domestic.htm

Since the power usage of the HS-38 unit is only 2% of the cost of operating a 60 watt incandescent light bulb, it will not cost you very much to find out. If my math is correct,

1.2 watts/1000 = 0.0012 kw

kWh = kW x hrs = 0.0012 kw per hour

$ = $/kWh x kWh = $0.10/kwh X 0.0012 kw per hour = $0.0001 per hour


The HS-38 unit supposedly has working LED's so that one can determine whether the power is on. The typical LED may use as much as 1 watt. It would be very interesting to measure the power usage with the LED's plugged and unplugged.

http://www.theledlight.com/led_flashlightbulbs.html

Maybe I will buy one of these devices myself. It would be interesting to see if a device that uses no energy has any capability whatsoever.

 

[H20Girl]

I'm actually quite anxious to see what I find out with this.

The vendor indicated that the unit would be shipped same day, USPS Priority mail, so I should have it fairly soon.

They also provided me with some information regarding testing that I found very interesting.

They indicated that the LED is powered by the generated signal itself, and is not a "power light". (apparently the LED is somehow wired to the secondary side of the circuit, and is independent of the power source)

They indicated that the HS-38 should put out about 8v peak to peak "off pipe".

They indicated that the output peak to peak voltage should not decrease more than 10% if "positioned correctly on pipe". (and went on about "loops")

They indicated that the signal is strong enough to light an LED on a second unit mounted upstream or downstream of a powered unit. (i.e. if I were to put two units on a pipe, the signal generated from the powered unit would light the LED on the other non-powered unit) I did not want to spend the money to buy two units to find out if this is true, so I may try to figure out another way to test this. They also indicated that the best way to conduct testing would be on a non-conductive pipe, so it can be seen that the signal is on the "fluid column itself", and not just the pipe. I agree.

I guess the next thing I need to do is to establish a good testing protocol. The vendor has agreed to provide me with some info on this, so I will need to verify that what they provide can be considered "valid". Any other suggestions on how to test the unit are also welcome.

I have to say that the vendor seems very protective about disclosing information. I was told that I would be required to sign a non-disclosure agreement before they would provide any additional information regarding testing.

I would also (eventually) like to have one of our forum members verify the test protocol and eventual findings, should I find what appears to be a positive outcome. Perhaps bimr would be interested in volunteering his services?

H2OGirl

 

[H20Girl]

I've continued this thread on the Water Treatment:New & Alternative Technologies Forum under the thread "Putting Hydropath Technology to the Test".

bimr: Please take a look at the test material the vendor provided and provide feedback. Thanks!

H2OGirl

 

[GarySCWSVI]

Since you don't have a scale forming water, how will you test it?

Gary Schreiber, CWS VI
The Purolite Co.

 

[H20Girl]

Hi GarySCWSVI,
All I can do at this point is test to see if it does in fact create the waveform described on their website, and test to see if I can detect a signal "on a fluid column".

Although this means nothing as far as "scale control" is concerned, there has been some debate whether the principles of operation are even valid, if it is possible to create a "standing sine wave" on a piping system, or to be able to "induce a signal into a fluid column".

These things shouldn't be that hard to test for, I wouldn't think...

H2OGirl